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Hearing Transcript
1 Thursday, 27th January 2005
2 (6.15 pm)
3 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, Mr Roxburgh.
4 MR ROXBURGH: Before the witness takes the oath I think
5 I should say a few words about the rather unusual
6 arrangements for this hearing, the purpose of which is
7 for the Tribunal to hear the evidence of Witness X.
8 Witness X is entitled under rulings of the Tribunal to
9 give his evidence anonymously and screened from the view
10 of the public, although visible to the Tribunal, its
11 counsel and the legal representatives of the interested
12 parties.
13 The Tribunal is sitting today in public in Court 38
14 at the Royal Courts of Justice in London. Witness X,
15 his solicitor and counsel are at another location
16 together with Ms McGahey on behalf of the Tribunal.
17 There is nobody else in the room with them.
18 There are two-way audio and videolinks between this
19 courtroom and the other location but because of
20 Witness X's entitlement to screening, the video monitors
21 showing him will be visible only to the Tribunal and to
22 counsel questioning the witness.
23 For practical reasons that means that the
24 questioning has to be conducted from the witness box in
25 this courtroom where I am now standing rather than from
1 the usual place. Since there is only limited space in
2 this courtroom, further public accommodation has been
3 made available in Court 36 in this building as well as
4 in the Guildhall in Derry for those who wish to follow
5 the proceedings from there. Both in Court 36 and in the
6 Guildhall there are in place audio relays and also video
7 screens which show the Tribunal and the lawyers but not
8 the witness.
9 With that introduction, could the witness please be
10 sworn.
11 WITNESS X (sworn)
12 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH
13 MR ROXBURGH: May I begin by asking that there be put in
14 front of the witness both the redacted version of his
15 statement at page 3 of the bundle prepared for today's
16 hearing and also the unredacted version of his
17 statement.
18 Now, Witness X, is it right that you made
19 a statement to this Inquiry on 9th February 2000?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. Do you understand that there are two versions of that
22 statement, first of all the original complete version
23 that you have signed and then a redacted version;
24 in other words, a version from which certain information
25 including your name and date of birth has been excluded?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Would you look, please, first of all at the original
3 unredacted statement that you signed. Now this version
4 of the statement has not been made public and I am not
5 going to ask you to disclose in public any of the
6 details that do not appear in the other version; do you
7 understand?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Does your signature appear on this statement?
10 A. It does.
11 Q. Are the contents of this statement true to the best of
12 your knowledge and belief?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If you would very kindly look at the redacted version of
15 your statement, which should have page 3 in the top
16 right-hand corner and the reference AX1.3 in the lower
17 right-hand corner --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- and look at paragraph 1, please. You say there that
20 you did not participate in the civil rights march on
21 Bloody Sunday; is that right?
22 A. That is right, that is right.
23 Q. We know that many people in Derry did take part in the
24 march on that day; was there any particular reason why
25 you chose not to?
1 A. I was instructed by my parents not to go near the march.
2 Q. Could you repeat your last answer, please?
3 A. I was instructed by my parents not to go near the march.
4 Q. You were instructed by your parents not to go on the
5 march?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Yes. You say, in paragraph 1, that you have only ever
8 been on trades union marches; is that right?
9 A. That is right.
10 Q. Apart from whether or not you took part in the march on
11 Bloody Sunday, were you at any stage that afternoon in
12 the area of Rossville Street or Glenfada Park?
13 A. No.
14 Q. How did you spend the afternoon of that day?
15 A. Mostly around my home in Creggan.
16 Q. Did you go to the Bogside at any stage that afternoon?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, you also say in paragraph 1 of your statement that
19 you were not then and never have been politically
20 minded; is that true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If you look at paragraph 7 of your statement you say
23 that you have never been a member of the Provisional or
24 Official IRA; is that true?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were you a member of either of those organisations at
2 the time of Bloody Sunday?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Your evidence to this Tribunal is that you have never
5 been a member of either of those organisations; is that
6 right?
7 A. I was never a member -- I was not a member of either of
8 the wings of the IRA on Bloody Sunday.
9 Q. We may come back to that a little later. Now, in
10 paragraph 5 of your statement you say that you were
11 arrested in 1972 --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- but you cannot remember precisely when. Can you
14 remember this much: was it before or after Bloody Sunday
15 that you were arrested?
16 A. After Bloody Sunday.
17 Q. After Bloody Sunday but in 1972?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. By the time of your arrest, were you a member of either
20 the Provisional or the Official IRA?
21 A. When I was arrested, it was after Bloody Sunday, I was
22 asked to come to give evidence of the day of Bloody
23 Sunday and that is what I am prepared to do.
24 Q. Well, I must ask you the question again: by the time you
25 were arrested were you a member of either of Provisional
1 or the Official IRA?
2 A. Yes. You do not have to repeat. I was asked to come
3 here and give evidence about the day of Bloody Sunday
4 and that is what I am prepared to do.
5 Q. Is the position that you refuse to answer that question?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it right that you were arrested by the RUC?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you then interviewed or interrogated by RUC
10 officers?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you tell those RUC officers that you were a member
13 of the IRA?
14 A. No.
15 Q. After your interview, you were released without charge;
16 is that right?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Well, what happened after your interview?
19 A. I was -- I was interviewed for a number of days and
20 I ended up interned.
21 Q. Just look at paragraph 6 of your statement, where you
22 say, "I was released without being charged"; is that
23 right or not?
24 A. Sorry, I am -- I am -- that was shortly after
25 Bloody Sunday, I was talking about further on down the
1 line, sorry about that. I was released without charge
2 on that day.
3 Q. Could we look please at paragraph 33 of your statement
4 where you say this:
5 "Attached to this statement is a copy of what
6 I understand was an interview note taken by the RUC.
7 I have absolutely no knowledge of this interview nor the
8 contents of the note."
9 A. That is right.
10 Q. We have the note in redacted form at page 1 of the
11 bundle and we will look at it in just a moment. Is it
12 still your evidence that you have absolutely no
13 knowledge of the interview or the contents of the note?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. I would like you please to keep your statement in front
16 of you and at the same time to look at the unredacted
17 copy of the interview note which Ms McGahey will provide
18 to you.
19 A. That has been done.
20 Q. In paragraph of your statement, when you are referring
21 to the note, you say that the name of the subject is
22 yours; do you see that you say that in paragraph 4?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. It is right, is it not, that the orange interview note
25 accurately states your full name?
1 A. It does.
2 Q. Does it also accurately state the address at which you
3 were living at the time of your interview?
4 A. It does.
5 Q. So far as the date of birth is concerned, is it right
6 that the day and the month are the same as the day and
7 month of your birth but the year is wrong?
8 A. It does.
9 Q. In fact, the year of birth given in the original
10 document is 1972, is it not?
11 A. It is.
12 Q. So, would you agree that given that this was
13 an interview being conducted in 1972 that the year of
14 birth is obviously a mistake?
15 A. I would agree.
16 Q. So, whether or not the contents of this document are
17 accurate, do you agree that it is a document that
18 clearly identifies you as the subject of the interview
19 of which it is supposed to be a note?
20 A. I agree that there was an (indistinguishable) note from
21 the RUC with my name on it.
22 Q. If you would just look again at paragraph 4 of your
23 statement to this Inquiry. In the second line of
24 paragraph 4 your name has been redacted?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But you say that it is a fairly common name and you know
2 of at least five people with that name in County Derry?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You also point out the error about the date of birth?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, in that paragraph of your statement were you trying
7 to suggest that the document might relate to somebody
8 other than you?
9 A. In that paragraph of my statement I am saying to you
10 I knew nothing -- nothing about this Tribunal.
11 Q. Were you trying to suggest that the document might
12 relate to somebody other than you?
13 A. Not really, no.
14 Q. If you look again at the unredacted interview note, do
15 you see where your address is written?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. To the right of that there is a date, is there not? Do
18 you see the date to the right of the address?
19 A. I do, yes.
20 Q. Now, please do not say what the date is because it does
21 not appear in the redacted version, but are you able to
22 say whether or not that is the date on which you were
23 interviewed by the RUC?
24 A. I would be confident it was, yes.
25 Q. When you were interviewed by the RUC, would you have
1 understood that if you told them that you were involved
2 in paramilitary activities, then the consequence of that
3 might be that you would be interned?
4 A. It was over 30 years ago when I was interviewed by the
5 RUC. I have no recollection of even thinking about
6 internment.
7 Q. I would like now please to look with you at the redacted
8 version of the note at page 1 of the bundle, but could
9 you please keep the unredacted note in front of you as
10 well, because we may need to refer to both.
11 Do you have both versions of the note with you?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Looking at the redacted version of the note with the
14 reference AX1.1 in the lower right-hand corner, it
15 begins by saying, "I joined the Provisional IRA just
16 after Cusack was shot".
17 Do you remember the shooting of Seamus Cusack?
18 A. I am sorry, I do not, no.
19 Q. Do you have any idea when the shooting of Seamus Cusack
20 occurred?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you tell the RUC that you joined the Provisional IRA
23 just after Cusack was shot?
24 A. I did not.
25 Q. The note goes on:
1 "I did not join because of the killings, it was
2 because I believed in a United Ireland."
3 Did you say that to the RUC when you were
4 interviewed?
5 A. I did not.
6 Q. Then there is a blank in the note and after the blank it
7 reads as follows:
8 "... talked about what they were doing and why
9 I wanted to join. It was about five weeks after that he
10 contacted me."
11 Now, if you look at the unredacted note and the
12 second line of it you will see who it is who is supposed
13 to have talked to you about why you wanted to join the
14 IRA. Now, please do not say who the person identified
15 in the unredacted version of the note is but do you see
16 the passage of the unredacted note that I am referring
17 to?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Did you know that person?
20 A. Knew the person? No, I did not know this person. I do
21 not even know who this person is.
22 Q. Did you tell the RUC that you had spoken to anybody
23 about reasons for wanting to join the IRA?
24 A. I did not.
25 Q. If you look at the unredacted note again, it continues:
1 "I had to go to blank to get sworn in."
2 If you then once again please look at the unredacted
3 note, you can see in the fourth line the place which is
4 recorded in the unredacted note is the place to which
5 you had to go to be sworn in. Did you go to that place
6 for any purpose connected with the IRA?
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. Did you tell the RUC that you had gone there?
9 A. I did not.
10 Q. If we then look at the next sentence, there is another
11 blank and it says:
12 "blank and another man did the actual swearing
13 in."
14 Once again, I would be grateful if you look at the
15 unredacted note to see who is supposed to, according to
16 the note, have sworn you in. Please do not mention the
17 name but is that a reflection of anything that you told
18 the RUC during your interview?
19 A. No.
20 Q. A little further on in the redacted note, there is a
21 sentence that begins:
22 "When I came back to Derry I was employed in
23 blank."
24 Once again would you look please at the unredacted
25 note to see the area in which, according to the note,
1 you were employed; do you see that?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Were you employed in that area?
4 A. I was not.
5 Q. Did you tell the RUC that you were?
6 A. I did not.
7 Q. Moving on in the redacted one, there is a sentence which
8 says:
9 "I trained in .303 and Thompson."
10 Did you at any stage receive training in the use of
11 the .303 and a Thompson sub-machine gun?
12 A. Not at any time.
13 Q. Sorry, could you repeat that answer, please?
14 A. Not at any time, I did not.
15 Q. Did you tell the RUC anything about having been trained
16 in the use of a .303 or a Thompson?
17 A. I did not.
18 Q. Then, skipping on a little in the redacted note there is
19 a sentence:
20 "I did firing practice just outside Letterkenny."
21 Did you at some stage do firing practice just
22 outside Letterkenny?
23 A. I did not.
24 Q. Did you tell the RUC that you had done firing practice
25 outside Letterkenny?
1 A. I did not.
2 Q. The redacted note goes on:
3 "I did weapon training in the garand .306 .303 and
4 carbine."
5 Did you at any stage receive weapons-training in the
6 use of those weapons?
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. Did you tell the RUC that you had?
9 A. I did not.
10 Q. In your statement to this Inquiry, you say that you know
11 nothing about firearms; is that true?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. That you have only ever fired a gun at fun fairs?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. A little further on in the redacted note, perhaps if we
16 go to the top of page 2 of the bundle, there is a
17 sentence:
18 "We had two armalites, four carbines, three garands
19 and three .303s."
20 Did you say anything to the RUC about having those
21 weapons?
22 A. I did not.
23 Q. Then we come to the part of the note that refers to
24 Bloody Sunday which reads as follows:
25 "I was also in action on Bloody Sunday at
1 Rossville Street on Bloody Sunday. I was using
2 a carbine. It was a joint operation. I was firing from
3 Glenfada. I used two full magazines. I had four mags
4 altogether."
5 Were you in action on Bloody Sunday in any sense?
6 A. I was not.
7 Q. Did you have at any stage on Bloody Sunday a weapon or
8 ammunition in your possession?
9 A. Definitely not, I had not.
10 Q. Were you aware of any joint operation taking place on
11 Bloody Sunday?
12 A. To be honest with you, whatever you mean by "joint
13 operation" I know nothing, I knew nothing, I know
14 nothing about that at all.
15 Q. Did you say any of these things to the RUC when you were
16 interviewed?
17 A. I did not, I did not.
18 Q. Now, the last sentence of the redacted version of the
19 note says this:
20 "PIRA 8, PIRA 9 and then blank in respect of the
21 third name were the only Provos in Rossville Street
22 along with the Stickies. Reg Tester, OIRA 4, OIRA 6
23 were the only Stickies I knew."
24 Now, let us just take PIRA 8 first: if you could
25 look, please, at the unredacted version of your
1 statement to this Inquiry. At paragraph 9, do you see
2 that at the end of the second line of paragraph 9, in
3 the unredacted version, you refer to an individual who
4 you know in passing?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Now, please do not say his name but he is the person
7 known in this Inquiry as PIRA 8, do you understand?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Is it correct that he is someone you know in passing?
10 A. In passing, yes.
11 Q. Did you know him at the time of Bloody Sunday?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Do you remember whether you saw him anywhere at any time
14 on Bloody Sunday?
15 A. To the best of my knowledge, going back 30-odd years
16 ago, I cannot remember what -- whether I seen him that
17 day or not.
18 Q. Did you tell the RUC that he was a Provo who had been in
19 Rossville Street?
20 A. I did not.
21 Q. Now, the next person whose cipher appears in the
22 redacted note is PIRA 9 and he is someone who was given
23 a cipher but has chosen not to claim anonymity, so I can
24 say that his name is Martin Doherty, known as
25 "Ducksie Doherty"; do you know him?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Did you know him at the time of Bloody Sunday?
3 A. I did not.
4 Q. Did you tell the RUC that he had been one of the Provos
5 in Rossville Street?
6 A. I did not.
7 Q. I can also say that the third person named in the
8 interview note as one of the Provos in Rossville Street
9 is Gerald Doherty, known as "Mad Dog" Doherty; do you
10 know him?
11 A. At the time of Bloody Sunday?
12 Q. Do you know him now?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Did you know him at the time of Bloody Sunday?
15 A. I did not.
16 Q. Did you tell the RUC that he had been one of the Provos
17 in Rossville Street?
18 A. I did not.
19 Q. Then, moving on to the three Officials, the name
20 Reg Tester appears and you have said in your statement
21 that you know who Reg Tester is but would not know him
22 to speak to; is that right?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Did you tell the RUC that he was one of the only
25 Stickies you knew?
1 A. I did not.
2 Q. The other two individuals identified in this part of the
3 note are OIRA 4 and OIRA 6; perhaps I can ask Ms McGahey
4 to draw your attention to those names in the unredacted
5 version of the note, starting with OIRA 4. Please do
6 not say the name, but do you know that individual?
7 A. I do not.
8 Q. Did you tell the RUC that he was one of the Stickies
9 that you knew?
10 A. I did not.
11 Q. Finally OIRA 6, perhaps we can repeat the process?
12 A. The process is repeated: I did not, I did not.
13 Q. Right. So, what it comes to is, is it right, Witness X,
14 is that the RUC, as far as you can tell, have recorded
15 in this document a large number of things that you never
16 said to them; is that right?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Do you know why they did that?
19 A. I am sorry, I cannot answer for the RUC. You need to
20 ask them that.
21 Q. Well, we have asked them and they have given evidence
22 that they would not have invented material and put it in
23 a note of an interview with you, but that is a matter
24 for the Tribunal.
25 Now, could we next look, please, at page 32 of the
1 bundle, which has in the lower right-hand corner the
2 reference G134B.906.9, page 32, in the top right-hand
3 corner. Do you have that document?
4 A. I have.
5 Q. Now, this document is a letter written by a senior
6 officer at Army Headquarters in Lisburn to a colleague
7 at police headquarters in Knock in Belfast, and although
8 your name has been blanked out of it, it is a letter
9 that concerns you and as you can see it begins by
10 saying:
11 "You will recall we discussed the subject of how
12 much information blank may possess on the 30th January
13 events in Londonderry. We agreed that I should provide
14 you with a list of the sort of questions we would be
15 particularly interested to get the answers to."
16 Then a long list of questions is set out. If you go
17 over the page, please, you will see that at paragraph 3
18 of the letter the officer says:
19 "Perhaps you could try and get the RUC to carry out
20 this interview. It certainly would prove most useful to
21 us if we got answers to any of the questions set out
22 above."
23 If you could then kindly turn on to page 35 of the
24 bundle, we have a document which, for the purposes of
25 the transcript, has the reference G134B.906.8, which
1 contains two further notes made by RUC officers.
2 The first note in the top half of the page,
3 referring to the letter I have just shown you, says:
4 "The attached copy correspondence is
5 self-explanatory, and if it is at all possible, we must
6 do all we can to help. The answers are important to the
7 Army. A re-interview is necessary, although ... the
8 prospects may not be good. As stated, we must help if
9 we possibly can."
10 Then further down the page the detective chief
11 inspector has written that accompanied by a detective
12 sergeant he interviewed you and you refused to talk
13 about Bloody Sunday and stated:
14 "I have told you everything ... I refuse to say any
15 more. I don't want to get ten years at the
16 Special Court."
17 Now, do you recall any occasion after your original
18 interview when police officers tried to interview you
19 again about Bloody Sunday?
20 A. After the interview -- I will say again, I have
21 absolutely no recollection of ever being re-interviewed
22 again by the Special Branch.
23 Q. Or by any other branch of the RUC?
24 A. Or by any other branch of the RUC. I have absolutely no
25 recollection after the original interrogation.
1 Q. Do you have any recollection of ever saying words to the
2 effect that you refuse to say any more because you did
3 not want to get ten years at the special court?
4 A. I have absolutely no recollection of making that
5 statement.
6 Q. Could we now go, please, to page 4 of the bundle, which
7 has the reference APIRA24.9 in the lower right-hand
8 corner.
9 Now, this is an extract from the statement of a man
10 who is known in that Inquiry as PIRA 24, and he has
11 given evidence that at the time of Bloody Sunday he was
12 the officer commanding the Provisional IRA in Derry.
13 Do you understand?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. I am going to ask Ms McGahey to show you his name on
16 a sheet of paper but may I remind you that he is
17 entitled to anonymity, and so you must keep his name to
18 yourself and not give it in any answers that you give
19 today. Do you follow?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Have you seen the name?
22 A. I have.
23 Q. Do you know that man?
24 A. I do not.
25 Q. As far as you know, have you ever met him?
1 A. Em, I probably have met him but I do not know him
2 personally.
3 Q. Well, if we look at what he says in his statement, he
4 says in paragraph 37:
5 "I have been asked to comment on Witness X's
6 statement to this Inquiry and the suggestion that he
7 fired two magazines out of the four he had on the day
8 with a carbine. I do not think that this happened.
9 I know who Witness X is because I met him recently and
10 he has fold me that the contents of his statement are
11 untrue."
12 Now, PIRA 24 said that in this statement, which he
13 made just under a year ago on 11th February 2004. Did
14 you meet anyone at around that time and tell him that
15 the contents of your statement, by which he I think
16 means the police interview note, are untrue?
17 A. I really -- from the name that I have seen in this
18 Inquiry, no, I have never spoken to that man about this
19 Inquiry.
20 Q. Have you ever spoken to him about the police interview
21 note?
22 A. Never. I have not.
23 Q. Have you ever spoken to anyone whose name you did not
24 know about the police interview note?
25 A. I did not because I do not know who the police
1 interview.
2 Q. Well, you have known about it since you became involved
3 in this Inquiry?
4 A. I have known about it since my solicitor presented it to
5 me.
6 Q. Since then, have you ever spoken to about it to anyone
7 whose name you did not know who could be the individual
8 whose name is in front of you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In the light of those answers, we had better have a look
11 at what PIRA 24 said in his oral evidence and if you
12 would be kind enough to go on to page 5 of the bundle,
13 we will find part of the transcript for Day 426 of the
14 Inquiry's proceedings, and if you look please at the
15 lower half of the left-hand side of the page, which is
16 page 78 of the transcript, do you see the question:
17 "Question: How did it come about that some days ago
18 you met him?"
19 Do you see that? It is at the top of the lower
20 left...
21 A. I do see it, yes.
22 Q. Yes. He was being asked about what he said about you
23 and he was asked the question:
24 "Question: How did it come about that some days ago
25 you met him?
1 "Answer: I was in the shop and he happened to come
2 into the same shop and we were standing side by side and
3 he looked at me and he mentioned the Tribunal.
4 "Question: It was when you were in the shop, was
5 it, that he told you that the contents of his statement
6 were untrue?
7 "Answer: Told me outside the shop."
8 Now, does that bring back any recollection of
9 a conversation with anybody in a shop or outside a shop
10 about the evidence that you would give to this Inquiry
11 or about the contents of the police interview note?
12 A. No, definitely not.
13 Q. So you are saying this conversation simply never took
14 place?
15 A. This conversation, to the best of my knowledge, within
16 the last year, never took place.
17 Q. If we then go on to page 6 of the bundle, we will find
18 part of the continuation of his evidence of the same
19 witness on Day 427 and if you could look, please, at the
20 lower right-hand quarter of the page at line 6, there is
21 a question.
22 "Question: When did you encounter in the shop, as
23 you told us yesterday you did, Witness X?"
24 Do you see that?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. When asked that question, PIRA 24 said:
2 "Answer: Last week."
3 He was then asked, "What day of last week" and said
4 he could not remember. He was asked to think about it
5 and said it might have been Monday or Tuesday.
6 Then his next answer:
7 "Answer: It might have been Monday, for Monday was
8 the Tribunal. It might have been in the middle of the
9 previous week.
10 "Question: Was it just a chance encounter?
11 "Answer: I think it was the Thursday of the
12 previous week, no. I think it was the Thursday of the
13 previous week.
14 "Question: I think the Thursday of the previous
15 week was the day that Witness X was due to give evidence
16 to this Tribunal."
17 Now, the Thursday that he was talking about was
18 Thursday, 29th January last year, which was indeed the
19 day on which you had been summoned to give evidence in
20 the Guildhall. Do you remember that you were required
21 to appear last January in the Guildhall?
22 A. I do remember that.
23 Q. You did not appear on that occasion, did you?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. Seeing what PIRA 24 says there, do you have any
1 recollection of meeting anyone and discussing the
2 Inquiry, or anything to do with the Inquiry on the very
3 day when you were supposed to be giving your evidence in
4 the Guildhall?
5 A. To the name that was shown to me in this Inquiry, I have
6 never spoke or mentioned the Tribunal to that
7 individual.
8 MR ROXBURGH: Thank you very much, those are my questions.
9 Questioned by MR LAWSON
10 MR LAWSON: Witness X, my name is Lawson, as you may have
11 heard, and I represent today a large number of the
12 soldiers. Some questions for you, please.
13 Can I just understand and confirm what your evidence
14 is about the man whom we know as PIRA 24 and whose true
15 name you have been shown by Ms McGahey?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. He is somebody, do we understand correctly, who you
18 probably would have met but you do not know him
19 personally?
20 A. Derry is a big place. I could have met him, spoke to
21 him but I do not know him personally.
22 Q. Is he somebody who you have seen regularly --
23 A. No.
24 Q. -- or fairly regularly?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Is he somebody who, as far as you know, has any reason
2 to lie about you?
3 A. I cannot answer that for that individual. I am sorry,
4 you will have to ask him. The person, I do not think he
5 knows me personally.
6 Q. Can you suggest any reason why that person might make up
7 stories about you?
8 A. I am sorry, I am not here to make suggestions, I am here
9 to answer to the Inquiry. I cannot answer that
10 question.
11 Q. You see, he gave evidence, as has been put to you by
12 Mr Roxburgh, and gave evidence a few days after the time
13 when you should have given evidence, Witness X?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr Roxburgh has taken you to some parts of his evidence.
16 Just let me remind you of this: look in the bundle,
17 if Ms McGahey would be kind enough to show you, with the
18 page 7 on the top right-hand corner, Day 427, page 1201.
19 The top left-hand corner of the page, as you are looking
20 at it, is part of the initial questioning by Mr Alias of
21 PIRA 24.
22 He is being asked, do you see at the top of the page
23 --
24 A. I do.
25 Q. -- about meeting with you and he said:
1 "Answer: I would see him that is you on regular
2 occasions.
3 "Question: You see him regularly?
4 "Answer: Fairly regularly, yes."
5 That is what PIRA 24 said; that is just untrue, is
6 it?
7 A. I would not meet this person or see this person on
8 a regular basis.
9 Q. So it is not true that you saw him regularly or fairly
10 regularly?
11 A. It is not true.
12 Q. It is not true, so that we may understand this, that you
13 told him that the statement that was being attributed to
14 you by the RUC was a pack of lies; you did not tell him
15 that, is that right?
16 A. I have never spoken to him about this Inquiry or about
17 any statement allegedly made by me.
18 Q. Have you told other people that the statement that was
19 attributed to you was a pack of lies?
20 A. I told my wife and family.
21 Q. Have you told other friends, acquaintances?
22 A. I have never mentioned this Inquiry -- there are very
23 few people I have mentioned this Inquiry to.
24 Q. You see, I put that to you for this reason: if you go
25 back in the bundle of documents on front of you to
1 page 5, as part of the transcript of the evidence of
2 PIRA 24, bottom left-hand section, page 78 of the
3 original, at the bottom left hand section about halfway
4 down it is -- in fact, pick it up at line 8.
5 Do you see the question that he was being asked by,
6 I think, Mr Clarke:
7 "Question: Did you understand from him that is,
8 from you why he why you was concerned to tell you
9 PIRA 24 that the contents of the statement were
10 untrue?
11 PIRA 24's evidence was:
12 "Answer: I have known for some time that he had
13 told others and I think that he was -- maybe when he saw
14 me, he got an opportunity to tell me as well."
15 Right?
16 A. I understand, yes. I have no --
17 Q. Can I ask the question: is PIRA 24 right or wrong in
18 certainly the impression he gained, that you had been
19 telling other people before you spoke to him about how
20 the RUC, the Special Branch, had made up a statement
21 that it was all a pack of lies?
22 A. From your question, you are saying to me that PIRA 24
23 knows me very well, which is untrue. I do not know the
24 man, I never spoke to the man about the Bloody Sunday
25 Inquiry or in any statement that was made by me.
1 Q. I am simply putting to you, for your comment and for the
2 Tribunal's evaluation what it is that PIRA 24 said and
3 he, on your recollection, has it completely wrong; is
4 that right?
5 A. I have never spoken to PIRA 24 about this Inquiry.
6 Q. As Mr Roxburgh suggested to you, PIRA 24 identified the
7 occasion of this conversation as being the very day when
8 you were due to give evidence in Derry?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. When you had sent in a sick note, had you not?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Were you out and about in Derry that day?
13 A. Excuse me, that was a year ago. I could not even
14 remember where I was last Saturday. You are asking me
15 to remember back a year ago. I cannot be certain
16 (indistinguishable).
17 Q. Can you remember, in fact, whether you had
18 a conversation a year ago with somebody like PIRA 24?
19 A. I have repeated at least three or four times, I never
20 had this conversation with PIRA 24.
21 Q. So that we may understand, have you spoken to
22 representatives of the media, the press, or the
23 television or radio to tell them that the RUC have made
24 up a pack of lies about you?
25 A. I have seen the release papers and I have spoken to
1 certain members of the press, yes.
2 Q. Was that in April of 2002 or thereabouts, or do you not
3 remember because it was too long ago?
4 A. I am sorry, the exact month I do not remember.
5 Q. But you were happy to talk to a journalist from the
6 Derry Journal?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Is that right?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Is that the occasion when you said you were not going to
11 ask for anonymity?
12 A. It was going around in my mind at that time, yes.
13 Q. That you had nothing at all to fear, is what you were
14 saying, because the Special Branch, the RUC had simply
15 made up a pack of lies about you and you were looking
16 forward to coming along to the Tribunal to tell that
17 publicly; is that a fair summary?
18 A. I do not think I put it in that context of words.
19 Q. That is not a fair summary? Did you tell the
20 Derry Journal journalist that it was your intention to
21 make your identity known when you came to give evidence
22 to the Inquiry?
23 A. At the time that was my intention.
24 Q. Did you tell the journalist that you had nothing to hide
25 simply because what is claimed in these statements is
1 total and absolutely rubbish?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. You did?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. Did you say: "I am supposed to have admitted firing this
6 gun on Bloody Sunday when Glenfada Park was full
7 a paras."
8 A. I -- as I say, that was the statement(as heard) that I
9 am supposed to have made.
10 Q. Did you say something like that to the journalist?
11 A. To be honest with you, I probably did but I do not
12 remember.
13 Q. Did you tell the journalist that you were at home all
14 the time on Bloody Sunday?
15 A. Which I have already stated to this Inquiry.
16 Q. I am just at the moment focussing on what you told the
17 journalist. Did you tell him that you were at home?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Was that true?
20 A. It was.
21 Q. You were at home all the time while the events of
22 Bloody Sunday were going on; is that the truth,
23 Witness X?
24 A. I was about my home, I might not have been in the house
25 but I was around my home.
1 Q. Which you volunteered to us earlier was in the Creggan?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. Did you give a similar account of that -- I need not go
4 through it all -- to the BBC at the same time?
5 A. I have never spoken to the BBC, to the best of my
6 knowledge.
7 Q. Let me ask you about that then, so that we understand
8 the position: look in the bundle that you have at
9 page 50, top right-hand pagination, there is not any
10 other reference, which is an extract from BBC News
11 website as I understand it, 26th April 2002, and it is
12 about you, is it not?
13 A. It is.
14 Q. As had the Derry Journal, it says, halfway down the
15 page, that you have now decided that you wanted to
16 testify in front of the families, the public, the media,
17 to allow your name to be used, et cetera?
18 A. It does.
19 Q. Turn the page, if you will. They reported, the BBC,
20 that you had said it was simply not true, the suggestion
21 that you had been a Provisional IRA member firing a gun
22 in Glenfada, you had never been a member of the IRA and
23 you were at home on Bloody Sunday?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Did you tell them that?
1 A. I do not remember ever speaking to the BBC, I do not
2 know where they got this comment from. It could have
3 been from another source but it definitely was not from
4 me.
5 Q. Definitely not you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So the next paragraph:
8 "... and he told the BBC that he did not say
9 anything of this nature to the RUC."
10 That is just another lie, is it, Witness X?
11 A. I can remember reading somewhere else (as heard) the
12 article was definitely not from me.
13 Q. It is wrong to suggest, as they do, that you told them
14 anything because you do not have any recollection
15 speaking to them at all; is that right?
16 A. I have no recollection of ever speaking to the BBC.
17 Q. Would you look please at the redacted version of the
18 statement made to this Inquiry, bearing the date
19 9th February 2000, page 3 of the bundle, top right,
20 AX1.3.
21 A. I have it, yes.
22 Q. It begins, does it not, for the benefit of those who do
23 not have it in front of them:
24 "I did not participate in the civil rights march on
25 Bloody Sunday. At the time I was heavily involved in
1 soccer and played for a local team. I was not then and
2 never have been politically minded. My main interest
3 now is my wife and family. I have only ever been on
4 trade union marches."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It goes on:
7 "I can remember the evening of Bloody Sunday. I was
8 in my mother and father's house with some of my brothers
9 and sisters. I can remember feeling angry as the news
10 of what had taken place began to come in."
11 Where were you while the civil rights march was
12 going on, on Bloody Sunday, Witness X?
13 A. As I told this Inquiry already and I am repeating myself
14 from your colleague's question, my mother and father
15 asked me not to go to the march. I hung about my area.
16 Q. You hung about your area or stayed at home?
17 A. My home is -- I hung about my home.
18 Q. Why did you not simply say that when you were giving
19 this account in February of 2000, because I have taken
20 you to exactly what you said; if it be true that you
21 were at home, why not simply say, "I was at home all
22 day", or "at or near my home all afternoon"?
23 A. If you are going to nit-pick at words, I do not honestly
24 know why I did not say that.
25 Q. Is it because you were not in fact at home?
1 A. Where would you suggest I be?
2 Q. Were you on the march?
3 A. I was not.
4 Q. Were you near where the march was taking place?
5 A. I was not.
6 Q. Were you on duty as a member of the Provisionals that
7 afternoon?
8 A. I was not a member of the Provisional IRA on the day of
9 Bloody Sunday.
10 Q. My question to you is really quite simple on this point
11 at least, going back to the one I asked you: if you were
12 at home that afternoon, why did you not simply say so
13 when making this short statement to the Inquiry?
14 A. I am sorry, I have already answered that question. You
15 are just going around in circles. I am not answering it
16 any more. I have already answered it two or three
17 times.
18 Q. You have not answered it at all. Just once more, was
19 there any reason why you did not say to the Inquiry--
20 A. I am sorry I refuse to answer, I have answered it two or
21 three times, I am not answering it again.
22 Q. Let me ask you about another question that you refuse to
23 answer when Mr Roxburgh put it to you: you said that you
24 were not a member of the Provisionals on Bloody Sunday?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Then he asked you twice the question as to whether you
2 had ever been a member of the Provisionals, or indeed
3 the other organisation, the Officials, and you say you
4 will not answer that?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Will you reconsider that? Will you answer that
7 question?
8 A. I have been asked by Lord Saville in this Inquiry to
9 come to answer questions about Bloody Sunday and that is
10 what I intend to do; not what happened or may not have
11 happened or might have happened after Bloody Sunday.
12 Q. You are giving sworn evidence on the oath that you took
13 a few minutes ago. Let me ask you in terms: is it true
14 on your oath that you have never been a member of either
15 the Provisionals or the Officials; is that true?
16 A. On the day of Bloody Sunday I have never been a member
17 of the Provisionals or the Officials.
18 Q. You know that is not the question I am asking you.
19 A. That is the answer I am giving you.
20 Q. Is it true that you have never been a member of the
21 Provisionals or the Officials?
22 A. On the day of Bloody Sunday I was not a member of the
23 Provisionals or the Officials.
24 Q. Look in your statement which is before you at
25 paragraph 7. This is the statement which you told the
1 Inquiry, when Mr Roxburgh first asked you questions
2 a little while ago, was the truth. Look at paragraph 7.
3 Can you read it out? What does it say?
4 A. "I have never been a member of the Provisional or the
5 Official IRA and I have never been arrested or charged
6 with terrorist offences."
7 Q. Was that true, on your oath?
8 A. From my recollection, but I could be wrong, I would say
9 that question was asked to me about Bloody Sunday and
10 that is the truth. I was never a member of the
11 Provisional IRA or the Official IRA on Bloody Sunday.
12 Q. The Tribunal might -- it is entirely up to them -- infer
13 or be invited to infer that your refusal to answer this
14 question suggest that you became a member of the IRA
15 after Bloody Sunday; do you want to say anything about
16 that?
17 A. The only thing that I can say is that that is entirely
18 up to the Inquiry.
19 Q. Had you become a member of the IRA by the time you were
20 lifted by the RUC?
21 A. I was interned, I was never charged.
22 Q. Once more: had you become a member of the IRA by the
23 time you were lifted by the RUC?
24 A. I was interned, never charged.
25 Q. How many times were you lifted by the RUC?
1 A. Excuse me sir, you are talking over 30 years ago. Once
2 or twice, I honestly cannot remember.
3 Q. It was not something which happened daily to you; once
4 or twice?
5 A. Sorry, you could not be conversant with the situation in
6 Northern Ireland where you could be taken into the
7 barracks for five minutes or five hours. I am sorry,
8 you must not be conversant with the situation in
9 Northern Ireland at that time.
10 Q. Thank you for that advice, but let me ask you again: how
11 many times were you lifted?
12 A. Once again I cannot remember, it was 1972, the Army...
13 Q. How long? Was it once or twice?
14 A. Sorry, again, at the time you were arrested on a daily
15 basis. I do not -- I cannot answer that question.
16 Q. You said once or twice a few minutes ago; I am just
17 trying to find out whether it was once or twice?
18 A. I am sorry, sir, you are nit-picking again, so you are.
19 Q. I am not what?
20 A. You are nit-picking again.
21 Q. I am not playing a game, that is right.
22 A. Ask me a specific question.
23 Q. How many times were you lifted by the RUC?
24 A. From Bloody Sunday?
25 Q. After Bloody Sunday?
1 A. It could have been once a day, it could have been twice
2 a day, it could have been once a week, it could have
3 been twice a week, I do not honestly know.
4 Q. You are suggesting seriously that it could have been
5 twice a day after Bloody Sunday that you were lifted by
6 the RUC?
7 A. Again, sir, I am saying to you, you must not have
8 knowledge of Northern Ireland at that time, sir, when
9 you were frequently arrested and questioned.
10 Q. You said that when you were lifted, arrested, after
11 Bloody Sunday it was not right -- when Mr Roxburgh made
12 the suggestion to you -- not right to say that you were
13 released right away without being charged. You said you
14 were interviewed for a number of days and then interned;
15 was that true?
16 A. Again, sir, I misunderstood Mr Roxburgh's question.
17 Q. All I am asking is: is it true that you were lifted,
18 interviewed for several days or over several days, and
19 then interned?
20 A. At one point in 1972, yes, that is correct.
21 Q. That was the part of 1972 that is consistent with the
22 date that appears on the original of that interview
23 note, is it not?
24 A. It does.
25 Q. Yes. I understand, the Tribunal has ruled that the
1 date, even the approximate date may be sensitive, I do
2 not think there is any difficulty in this regard.
3 However it was after Bloody Sunday as you have told us,
4 it was after Widgery had conducted his Inquiry and had
5 published his report; do you remember that?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The Tribunal has heard some evidence, a suggestion from
10 one of the military witnesses, that the story as you
11 would say of your confession, your admissions, came to
12 him in about the summer of 1972. That would be a bit
13 early, would it not?
14 A. It would.
15 Q. Yes. So later in 1972; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you very much. Now, reverting to the short
18 one-page redacted statement at page 3 of the bundle --
19 MS MCGAHEY: Mr Lawson, I am very sorry to interrupt you.
20 The witness would like you to repeat the last two
21 questions.
22 MR LAWSON: What I was putting to you, first of all, was
23 that the occasion of your being lifted and interviewed
24 by the RUC was sometime after the Widgery Inquiry and
25 Widgery Report had happened and you agreed with that; is
1 that right?
2 A. Sorry sir, yes.
3 Q. I also put to you or reminded us all, if it be of any
4 help, that one of the military witnesses said that he
5 heard the "Witness X story" in about the summer of 1972,
6 and I was suggesting to you that he was probably a bit
7 early on that; it was later on in the year. You agreed
8 with that. Do you wish to change that?
9 A. No sir, that is correct.
10 Q. That is all I am asking you about from the timing
11 viewpoint. I do not want to trespass into that area any
12 further, if there is a perceived sensitivity about it.
13 On the occasion that you arrested, lifted, call it
14 what you will, you certainly were interviewed, as you
15 told us?
16 A. I was.
17 Q. You were, and I am not going to ask the precise age, but
18 you were quite a young man at the time, were you not?
19 A. I was.
20 Q. It must have been quite an intimidating experience?
21 A. This Inquiry has asked me to come today,
22 (indistinguishable).
23 Q. Right. When you were asked questions by the RUC
24 officers, did you answer them?
25 A. To the best of my knowledge: no, I did not.
1 Q. You did not answer any questions at all?
2 A. Sir, it was over 30 years ago. There was documents
3 threw down on front of me, I was hit in prison for three
4 or four days, I was hit and abused, documents were put
5 on front of me. No, I did not.
6 Q. Did you remember in fact whether you did or did not
7 answer questions?
8 A. It depends, I probably would have answered my name and
9 my address.
10 Q. Can you have before you the unredacted version of the
11 interview note, please, which we do not have.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You said that it bears your name, your full name --
14 Mr Roxburgh asked you -- is that right?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. I am not going to ask you to say what it is. When you
17 say your full name, is that just your first name and
18 your surname or all your Christian names?
19 A. Sorry, all my names.
20 Q. All your names. Three Christian names --
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. -- and a surname?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. They are all accurate, are they not, in the sense that
25 they all refer to you?
1 A. That is -- there might be --
2 Q. Is that right? It is undoubtedly your name and when you
3 say in your statement that your name is a fairly common
4 name, you know at least five in Derry, you are referring
5 to your surname?
6 A. Yes, that is correct.
7 Q. I presume you do not know anybody else in Derry who
8 shares exactly your three first names followed by your
9 surname?
10 A. No, but I know people in Derry who have my first name as
11 well as your surname.
12 Q. And have your date of birth?
13 A. I am not saying that.
14 Q. And your address?
15 A. You are trying to put words into my mouth. I am not
16 saying that.
17 Q. Can you help please about this in relation to your
18 redacted statement: at the end of the statement in
19 paragraph 9 you refer to some of the names in the
20 document, that is the RUC document, do you not?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. You said, I will remind you, that you had a passing
23 knowledge of PIRA 8, you have been told who he is, and
24 you know who Reg Tester is, but did not know him to
25 speak to; is that right?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. There was one other person you knew. His name has been
3 redacted?
4 A. I see that in front of me.
5 Q. The other names in the statement you say, "are
6 completely unknown to me"; is that true?
7 MS MCGAHEY: I am sorry Mr Lawson, the witness is having
8 difficulty hearing you.
9 MR LAWSON: I do beg your pardon. I do not know whether it
10 is the link or my voice. I will try to speak up;
11 I thought I was reasonably loud.
12 You said in the statement to the Inquiry that, apart
13 from those that you mentioned, "the other names in the
14 statement are completely unknown to me."
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you did not know, if we look back at the statement on
19 the previous page in its redacted form, you told us you
20 did not know OIRA 4 and 6 at all, and you still do not?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. What about the man who had the title PIRA 9? As had
23 been said, he is Martin "Ducksie" Doherty. You know him
24 now?
25 A. I know him now, yes.
1 Q. Yes. You did not know him at the time of Bloody Sunday?
2 A. I did not. I have already answered this question.
3 Q. How long have you known him?
4 A. You are asking me a question, probably a few years.
5 Q. What about "Mad Dog" Doherty, Gerard Doherty? The same,
6 a good few years?
7 A. Sorry?
8 Q. Have you known him a good few years?
9 A. I know him a few years. I did not know him on
10 Bloody Sunday.
11 Q. Did you know him when he spoke to Eversheds to make your
12 statement to this inquiry?
13 A. Sorry, can you repeat that for me?
14 Q. Did you know him, "Mad Dog", Gerard "Mad Dog" Doherty
15 when you made your statement to Eversheds?
16 A. I knew of him at the time, yes, but I did not know him
17 personally.
18 Q. The same applied to "Ducksie" Doherty presumably?
19 A. I knew of him but I did not know him personally.
20 Q. Why then did you say in your statement to the Inquiry:
21 "The other names are completely unknown to me."
22 A. Sir, again you are nit-picking sir, "completely unknown"
23 or "known to me well" is two different questions.
24 Q. Let us look at what you actually said:
25 "The other names in the statement, that includes
1 Ducksie, Doherty and Mad Dog Doherty the other names
2 are completely unknown to me."
3 That was just a simple lie, was it not, Witness X?
4 A. Sir, it is you that is making the statement sir, not me.
5 Q. Was there anything that was recorded by the RUC in 1972
6 and attributed to you that was or might have been
7 accurate? Anything at all?
8 A. Sir ...
9 Q. Apart from your name and address and your date of birth?
10 A. Sorry sir, there was confusion (as heard) there, it
11 would be unwise of me, under instructions from counsel,
12 to answer that question.
13 Q. You were advised not to answer it. We understand that
14 the notes of the interview from evidence that has been
15 given to this Tribunal ran to some seven pages
16 originally or at least in one version?
17 LORD SAVILLE: Witness X and Mr Lawson, we will not go into
18 that question I am afraid for Article 2 reasons. The
19 these questions have, I am afraid, to be confined to
20 what we have in the form of the redacted statement.
21 MR LAWSON: If you please, sir. So far as the redacted
22 statement is concerned, every single word of that is
23 untrue in the sense that not a word of it came from you;
24 is that right?
25 A. I know nothing about this statement at all.
1 Q. Do you remember Seamus Cusack being shot?
2 A. I do not, I have already answered that question.
3 Q. Desmond Beatty?
4 A. I remember -- I have already answered that question,
5 I know that people were shot, I do not remember when
6 they were shot.
7 Q. But you heard of Seamus Cusack obviously?
8 A. Naturally, it was all on the TV and in the papers.
9 Q. And Desmond Beatty being shot in the middle of 1971?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. So you did know about that?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Your statement begins, the statement as recorded by the
14 RUC begins with reference to you joining the
15 Provisionals just after Cusack was shot.
16 A. Sir, I have already answered this question to your
17 previous colleague.
18 Q. Well, just help about these few matters then, if you
19 will, Witness X: did you make any statement at all that
20 you remember now, and I have been asking you questions
21 about it, I wonder if it provoked any memories, did you
22 make any kind of statements to the RUC officers after
23 you had been lifted?
24 A. Sir, I have been advised by counsel not to answer that
25 question.
1 Q. Well you answered it before, let me just ask you once
2 more, you did tell us before that you thought you had
3 not answered any questions. Did you give them any
4 information that you remember?
5 A. What kind of information are you suggesting I gave them,
6 sir?
7 Q. Anything.
8 A. Are you suggesting the statement is true that I am
9 an informer?
10 Q. I am asking you if you gave them any information at all?
11 A. Sir, I have already answered that question.
12 Q. So you are saying, it is black and white, they simply
13 made up this whole business of you giving them any
14 information about anything?
15 A. Sir, again I have already answered that question,
16 I cannot answer for the Special Branch or the RUC.
17 Q. This matter, and the question of the statement that was
18 attributed to you, came to your notice about four or
19 five years ago, did it not?
20 A. It came to my notice via my solicitor.
21 Q. Yes, and that was about four or five years ago?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Your solicitor is JB Stelfox & Co?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Thank you. Just look at the bundle, will you, of
1 documents you have before you, page 54 in the top
2 right-hand corner, I will take these few points in
3 chronological order: letter written by your solicitors
4 in November of 2001 to this Inquiry, which says:
5 "We enclose our client's redacted statement for your
6 information and attention."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. Sir, go ahead, yes.
9 Q. "We enclose our client's redacted statement for your
10 information and attention."
11 Over the page is what was enclosed which was
12 two-and-a-half lines out of that note, that RUC note:
13 "I was also in action on Bloody Sunday at
14 Rossville Street. On Bloody Sunday I used a carbine, it
15 was a joint operation, I used two full magazines, I have
16 four mags altogether."
17 Was that your statement?
18 A. Sorry sir, could you clarify, was that my statement to
19 whom?
20 Q. Was it a statement that had been made by you "our
21 client's redacted statement"?
22 A. Sorry sir, you need to ask Mr Stelfox about that because
23 if you are trying to accuse me of making a statement to
24 the RUC, I refute that.
25 Q. The statement that is two-and-a-half lines, that was
1 then being proffered to the Inquiry omitted, did not it,
2 did not contain what is in the note which you now have
3 before you, the redacted one later circulated "I was
4 firing from Glenfada."
5 A. Sir...
6 Q. It is not there, is it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. No. Why did you want that to be removed, Witness X?
9 A. Again, I did not ask for it to be removed, you will have
10 to ask my solicitor about that, he deals with all my
11 legal matters.
12 Q. Did you not indicate or dictate what was to be
13 volunteered by way of statement and what was not?
14 A. Volunteered sir ...
15 Q. Did you say: "I want this much volunteered" or "I do not
16 want that volunteered."
17 MS MCGAHEY: Sorry sir, the witness has just indicated that
18 he did not understand Mr Lawson's question.
19 MR LAWSON: I was asking you about page 55 and the little
20 extract that was there and the fact that it contained no
21 reference to Glenfada. Just take it in stages, you
22 agree it does not?
23 A. I see, I have it on front of me, yes.
24 Q. The fact that the document from which this had been
25 drawn said "I was firing from Glenfada" you would have
1 appreciated, you would have understood in no way, shape,
2 or form was going to lead to you being identified, was
3 it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was going to?
6 A. Sir, it was not, did not need to identify them (as
7 heard).
8 LORD SAVILLE: I think Witness X is in fact agreeing with
9 you.
10 MR LAWSON: Thank you very much. Do I understand you to be
11 saying that in fact this was not your suggestion or
12 proposal but this was your lawyer's?
13 A. Sir, I am not blaming nobody...
14 Q. I am not asking you to blame anyone, Witness X.
15 A. This statement was public knowledge to the Inquiry, to
16 myself and to my lawyer, to my solicitor. I did not ask
17 for anything to be taken out through communications to
18 the Inquiry and my solicitor.
19 Q. Would you describe the document as being, however much
20 of it is provided, the document as being your statement,
21 Witness X?
22 A. Sorry sir, can you repeat: my statement to who?
23 Q. Your statement, you know what "my" means, was it your
24 statement?
25 A. My statement to who, sir?
1 Q. To the police.
2 A. I made no statement to the police.
3 Q. Later on, just for completeness, you volunteered to
4 provide a bit more information than that which was
5 contained in that two and-a-half lines, did you not?
6 Volunteered to provide to the Inquiry?
7 A. How further on, sir?
8 Q. Sorry?
9 A. How further on?
10 Q. Not further on.
11 A. How further on -- are you saying sir?
12 Q. By 13th November 2001, when on the transcript of Day 162
13 at page 156 Mr McAteer indicated that you had changed
14 your mind. Does that help you at all? When you were
15 applying for anonymity.
16 A. Yes sir, go ahead.
17 Q. That is the answer to the question you asked of me, that
18 much later on, in November 2001.
19 A. Sorry sir, I could not understand your question.
20 Q. All right. I am not going to pursue it, in that case.
21 One can otherwise be considered. Help us about this, if
22 you will help about anything, Witness X: the Inquiry
23 issued a subpoena in January last year requiring you to
24 attend to give evidence, did it not?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Presumably from that, you had previously refused to
2 attend to give evidence?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. Why?
5 A. Sir, I did not think I had any evidence to give this
6 Inquiry.
7 Q. You did not think you had any evidence to give, so you
8 refused to come?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. You were due then to give your evidence in answer to the
11 subpoena on Thursday, 29th January of last year, as you
12 have agreed?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. We need not go over the ground again but that is the day
15 when PIRA 24 remembers having the chat with you outside
16 the shop, which you obviously find amusing?
17 A. No sir, I do not find it amusing, but you are going over
18 the same ground again.
19 Q. Why did you not turn up on 29th January?
20 A. Sir, as far as I can remember, I was ill at that time.
21 Q. What was wrong? Were you seriously ill?
22 A. Sorry, my medical history is of no concern to this
23 Inquiry.
24 Q. Were you seriously ill?
25 A. My medical history is of no concern to this Inquiry.
1 Q. Was it a minor or a major illness?
2 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Lawson, I am not at the moment convinced
3 that this is a particularly useful line of questioning.
4 MR LAWSON: If you please.
5 Let us deal with it in this manner: your solicitors
6 informed the Inquiry on 30th January that you might be
7 fit soon, we are told. I imagine you would not argue
8 with that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. The only reason for your not turning up to give evidence
11 on 29th January was that you were ill. Do you agree
12 with that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Much later on, when your solicitors applied to set aside
15 the subpoena in November of last year, it was claimed on
16 your behalf that your reasons for not turning up to give
17 evidence were medical and because of concerns about your
18 loss of anonymity. You know that, do you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Which you had never said a word about back in
21 January 2004, had you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. No. Why not?
24 A. Sir, I do not honestly know, I cannot answer that
25 question.
1 MR LAWSON: I have no other questions.
2 MR ROXBURGH: I have no further questions.
3 LORD SAVILLE: Witness X, it is the chairman speaking. Can
4 you hear me?
5 A. I can sir, yes.
6 LORD SAVILLE: Thank you for coming to give evidence to us.
7 There are two or three occasions during the course
8 of your evidence when you refused to answer questions.
9 The Tribunal takes the view that you were not entitled
10 to refuse to answer the questions that were asked but
11 have also come to the conclusion that no purpose
12 whatever will be pursued by taking that matter further
13 and accordingly, that is the position.
14 Thank you again.
15 A. Thank you sir. Thank you.
16 LORD SAVILLE: Was there anything else that you wanted to
17 raise, Mr Roxburgh?
18 MR ROXBURGH: Nothing further, sir.
19 LORD SAVILLE: Very well.
20 Can I say quite informally, it does seem like old
21 times to see familiar faces in front of me again.
22 Thank you very much.
23 (7.40 pm)
24 (The Tribunal adjourned)
25
1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 WITNESS X (sworn) ............................... 2
4 Questioned by MR ROXBURGH ................ 2
5 Questioned by MR LAWSON ................... 26
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