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Hearing Transcript
1 Tuesday, 26th June 2001
2 (9.30 am)
3 MR FULVIO GRIMALDI, affirmed
4 Questioned by MR CLARKE
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Grimaldi, if you look to
6 your right you will see who is talking to you. I am
7 the Chairman of the Tribunal. The questions will come
8 from the barristers who sit in front of me. All
9 I would ask you to do at this stage is to try and
10 remember to keep reasonably close to that microphone so
11 that everybody is able to hear what you have to say.
12 MR CLARKE: Mr Grimaldi, do you have with you
13 your statement to this Tribunal which you signed on
14 20th May last year?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Are the contents of that statement true to
17 the best of your knowledge and belief?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. We have all had the opportunity of reading
20 it, so I am not going to go through it paragraph by
21 paragraph, but I am going to ask a number of questions
22 that arise out of it.
23 If we look at paragraph 2, you tell us there
24 that you used to come over from Italy about twice a
25 year, for a few weeks at a time; that you visited
1 Northern Ireland after internment in 1971 and came back
2 to Northern Ireland in early 1972, during which time
3 you stayed in Derry.
4 Can you remember approximately when you came
5 back to Northern Ireland in early 1972?
6 A. Early in January.
7 Q. Early in January. Something like the first
8 week in January, is that about the sort of time?
9 A. I would imagine, I am not 100 per cent sure,
10 but I would imagine I stayed a couple of weeks, two or
11 three weeks before the event.
12 Q. Was Susan North with you all of the time, or
13 did she come after you?
14 A. To my recollection, she was with me all the
15 time.
16 Q. You describe in paragraphs 5 and those that
17 follow the beginning of the march and the unfortunate
18 fact in paragraph 6 that your film camera jammed,
19 which, as you say, is one of the greatest regrets of
20 your professional career.
21 Can we come over the page to paragraph 9:
22 you describe there how, as you came east down
23 William Street and before you reached the junction with
24 Little James Street and Rossville Street, you heard a
25 couple of shots fired from several types of weapon, in
1 rapid succession at a time, four or five shots fired in
2 some intervals.
3 Can you recall how long it was before the
4 soldiers came into the Bogside that you heard these
5 shots?
6 A. I have to clarify this matter because, on
7 consulting with Susan North and on listening to the
8 tape again, as she was in charge of recording, I learnt
9 that these shots that I speak about were in fact shots
10 that had been recorded on a previous occasion. She
11 explained to me -- I remember these things due to the
12 -- having listened to the tape after many, many years,
13 so I, having listened to the whole tape and having
14 heard these shots, I thought they belonged to that day
15 and took place in that moment in time, whereas I was
16 told that these shots had been recorded on a previous
17 occasion, probably at Aggro Corner in Derry, the day or
18 two days before.
19 Um, the confusion arises from the fact that
20 shots or explosions were going on, I mean, repeatedly
21 in those moments because I think the top of the march
22 had already reached the barricades in
23 Little James Street and in the William Street and there
24 might have been rubber bullets being fired, but these
25 shots I refer to were exactly the shots that Susan
1 explained to me belonged to a recording of the previous
2 day.
3 Q. She explained that to us yesterday. However,
4 could we have on the screen X2.9.2? Can I explain what
5 this is: Susan North told us yesterday that at the
6 time of the Widgery Inquiry when the tape was produced
7 she wrote out to provide some guide as to what the tape
8 was showing, the sequence of events.
9 If you look at item 4 that is presently on
10 the screen, it reads:
11 "Live bullets in William Street intermingled
12 with rubber bullets. (Taken from Aggro Corner. Listen
13 very carefully to shots)."
14 There is a passage on the tape, which is not
15 in the first section, which may belong to some day
16 other than Bloody Sunday. There is a page on the tape
17 relatively early on where one can hear, certainly what
18 sounds like one shot. So, depending how you interpret
19 these matters, it looks as if she had a recollection at
20 the time of hearing live bullets when at Aggro Corner.
21 Do you have any recollection of that now?
22 A. Not at all, but I remember that people in the
23 crowd on that day were suspicious of being fired at or
24 having -- or of having heard shots which they thought
25 might come from the Embassy Ballroom or from the roof
1 of the Post Office. These were rumours that went
2 round.
3 Q. Can we go back to M34.54, paragraph 11? You
4 describe, in the fifth line of this paragraph, how the
5 march reached the junction of William Street and
6 Little James Street and you noticed the barrier in
7 Little James Street with Saracens behind it and people
8 shouting and yelling.
9 Can you help me on this: at the time when you
10 got to the junction, where were you in relation to the
11 march; were you ahead of the march; were you at the
12 front of the march; or were you in the middle of the
13 march?
14 A. I would not have been in the middle of the
15 march, I would have been in the first section of the
16 march, whether at the top or whether after six or ten
17 rows of marchers, I do not know.
18 LORD SAVILLE: Do you remember -- it is the
19 Chairman speaking to you, Mr Grimaldi -- do you
20 remember if you were in front of or behind the lorry?
21 A. I was in front of the lorry, I was behind the
22 lorry and I was on top of the lorry on occasions.
23 I moved around in order to take the best pictures.
24 MR CLARKE: You describe how, when you got to
25 the junction there was a slowing down of the march and
1 the march stewards were trying to move people on.
2 Do you remember how many stewards, an
3 approximate number of stewards there were?
4 A. I think half a dozen.
5 Q. You followed in fact down towards the Army
6 barrier at the east end of William Street?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. A few dozen youths who broke through the
9 stewards; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did they actually have to break through them
12 or did they just go round them?
13 A. Well, break through them if it means that
14 they punched them up, they did not punch them up, they
15 did not remove them by force, they went round them,
16 trying to avoid their effort to hold them.
17 Q. You describe the number of people who went
18 down the east end of William Street as a few dozen, but
19 is it right that in the end considerably more than that
20 went down the east end of William Street, indeed filled
21 up the street?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraph 13 on
24 the same page: you describe there how the first
25 delegates to reach the barrier said words to the effect
1 "let us march through. It is our city, why should we
2 be barred?", and were met with the response "this is an
3 illegal march and we cannot allow you through"; was
4 this a policeman who was saying that or a soldier?
5 A. As far as I remember it was an army officer.
6 Q. Do you remember a policeman being there at
7 some stage with a loudhailer.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And presumably saying words to the same
10 effect?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. You then stayed and watched the confrontation
13 at the barrier and took a number of photographs. Could
14 we have EP26.1 on the screen, please? This, I think,
15 is a photograph of yours?
16 A. I should imagine, yes, it is.
17 Q. One can pick up the time as being about 3.35
18 at a stage when, as one can see, there is a sizeable
19 crowd of people at the end of William Street.
20 If we look at EP26.2, that I think is another
21 photograph of yours?
22 A. Mmm.
23 Q. I would like you to help us on this: when
24 I use the reference "EP", that means that it was one of
25 the photographs that was in front of Lord Widgery's
1 Tribunal (that was simply the lettering that they were
2 given) and the ones that were provided by you were
3 given the letter and number EP26.
4 We have, from the Sunday Times archives, a
5 series of photographs which have your name on the back
6 of them and I am not absolutely sure whether or not
7 they were all taken by you. I would like to show you
8 three of them.
9 Could we have on the screen, please, P850:
10 this is a photograph that has been taken from the east
11 end of William Street. The wasteground to the north is
12 where I am pointing. What we are calling barrier 12,
13 which is the barrier in Little James Street, is behind
14 the smoke that we can see in the distance. Do you
15 think that you may have taken this photograph?
16 A. Yes, I think I took it.
17 Q. 851 is another one in the same set from the
18 Sunday Times; do you think you may have taken that one?
19 A. I am not sure that I took that.
20 Q. 852, do you know whether you took that
21 photograph?
22 A. Yes, I took that photograph.
23 Q. Could we then come, please, to M34.55,
24 paragraph 15? You describe how there came a time when
25 the water cannon appeared and caused a stampede towards
1 Free Derry Corner. When you say "a stampede towards
2 Free Derry Corner", do you mean by that that people
3 went either back up William Street or down
4 Chamberlain Street?
5 A. I think mostly towards Rossville Street.
6 Q. After that some youths returned and the
7 exchange between the youths and the Army was repeated,
8 and at that stage dozens of rubber bullets were fired,
9 is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Again, can I show you another photograph
12 which may be yours; can we have a look at P843? Do you
13 think that may be a photograph of yours?
14 A. I have never seen it after the event. It
15 might well be, but I cannot be sure, (inaudible)
16 I would have like to have been the author of this
17 picture because it is a very nice picture.
18 Q. It may be that you are.
19 Can we go back to M34.55, paragraph 15? You
20 describe in paragraph 15 how CS gas canisters were
21 fired and the water cannon came up to the barrier a
22 second time.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And started spraying a dye. We have had some
25 evidence that the driver of the water cannon was
1 affected by the gas and that the water cannon had to
2 retreat because of that; do you remember seeing that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Anyway, the water cannon came up a second
5 time and then everybody rushed away from the barrier
6 again; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And at this stage you decided to make your
9 way away from the barrier.
10 Can I show you some more photographs which
11 I am sure are yours; can we have a look at EP26.4? We
12 can see from this photograph that there are now
13 relatively few, not more than about a dozen youths who
14 appear in the photograph, and we can see just by
15 looking at it that the ground has been wettened.
16 Do you think that this photograph was taken
17 after the first use of the water cannon or after the
18 second?
19 A. I would say after the first use of the water
20 cannon because after the second use of the water
21 cannon, I do not think people stayed there any more.
22 Q. EP26.5: I assume the same goes for that
23 photograph?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. EP26.6, another photograph in the same
1 series, and EP26.7: is there anything, looking back at
2 these photographs, that was happening which is not
3 immediately apparent from looking at the photograph?
4 A. No, I think this is more or less the time
5 when -- before I decided to move towards
6 Rossville Street and when Susan North tripped and fell
7 over, it must have been a few seconds after this
8 picture being taken, I mean, it is empty, so there was
9 no more interest in staying there.
10 Q. Can we have, please, P845: this is another
11 photograph that we have from the Sunday Times archive.
12 It looks as if it is in the same series; do you think
13 that is one of yours?
14 A. I would not be able to say.
15 Q. P846 is another one. Again, can you tell
16 whether that one is yours?
17 A. No, I would not be able to tell. I have not
18 seen these pictures and most of the pictures I took
19 I am familiar with and these two I did not, I do not
20 feel familiar with, so I do not think I took them.
21 Q. Can we come, please, back to M34.55,
22 paragraphs 16 to 18? You describe there finding the
23 little passageway that goes between William Street and
24 the wasteground, making your way down it and seeing, at
25 this stage, perhaps a couple of hundred people on the
1 wasteground recovering from the effects of the CS gas,
2 but most of the march had, by this stage, reached Free
3 Derry Corner; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You then describe in paragraph 17 standing at
6 Eden Place with your back towards Chamberlain Street
7 and seeing some people coming towards you carrying a
8 boy with his face badly bleeding and taking photographs
9 of the boy.
10 Can we have a look, please, at EP26.8? This
11 is, I think, one of your photographs?
12 A. Yes, indeed.
13 Q. It looks very much -- and Susan North told us
14 that it was -- a photograph in which the background is
15 some wire fence. Firstly, do you think that is a wire
16 fence and if so, do you know where it was?
17 A. No, I have no idea.
18 LORD SAVILLE: There was a photograph we
19 looked at yesterday in a different connection, looking
20 east across the wasteground. I think it may have been
21 one where we have the first aid man on the ground, or
22 one of those, and you can see a white building behind a
23 wire fence. It had crossed my mind it might have been
24 just about there.
25 MR CLARKE: It may be P278.
1 A. (Mobile phone ringing) I am sorry, it is me,
2 I forgot to switch it off, I am sorry.
3 LORD SAVILLE: It is very important you
4 should do so, Mr Grimaldi, the first is it is a bit
5 disconcerting and the second is, it plays havoc with
6 our sound system.
7 A. Yes, it is switched off now.
8 MR CLARKE: P278, please. Can I tell you
9 where this is: Eden Place -- this is the back of the
10 Chamberlain Street houses. Eden Place is off the
11 photograph, it is further up to the left, but there is
12 a pathway, just about, which leads behind the
13 Chamberlain Street houses down towards the
14 Rossville Flats.
15 What the Chairman has pointed out is that
16 there is a wire fence here and there is a white wall
17 behind it, and it is possible that the photograph was
18 taken down here, which is a little way away from
19 Eden Place.
20 MR TOOHEY: There is a bit of a problem with
21 that, possibly, Mr Clarke, because the earlier
22 photograph shows the wire, apparently, running
23 diagonally in one direction, which is a bit unusual,
24 I would have thought for a wire fence. It is not clear
25 from this photograph whether it is running in one
1 direction only or in fact is running in both
2 directions.
3 MR CLARKE: No, it is not clear.
4 Can you help us on this: do you have any
5 recollection of going, at this stage, further south
6 from Eden Place?
7 A. No, I might have stepped out from the corner
8 of Eden Place into the waste ground by, say, four,
9 five, six yards in order to take pictures, but not more
10 than that.
11 In any case, the previous picture has an
12 effect by which it seems that the wire fence, or
13 whatever it is, is very close to the wounded boy, but
14 it might be an optical effect of the photograph, the
15 wire might be quite far away.
16 Q. You say in paragraph 17 of your statement
17 that you think that the boy's name was Hegarty. Is
18 that because somebody told you that a boy who had been
19 injured by a gas cannister was called Hegarty?
20 A. I do not remember why I decided that he could
21 be Hegarty, probably somebody told me later on that the
22 first person wounded was Hegarty.
23 Q. It is not entirely surprising you should have
24 that memory because if we look at photograph P783,
25 there is what I believe to be another boy, in other
1 words a boy other than the one whom you photographed,
2 but I may be wrong on that, who was injured by a gas
3 cannister and was taken down to the Rossville Flats.
4 We believe that this boy in the middle is in fact
5 Hugh Hegarty.
6 A. Mmm.
7 Q. Is this your photograph?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Could we then come back to M34.55,
10 paragraph 18? You describe how, after a very short
11 time you heard engines roaring and saw two or three
12 Saracens move south down Rossville Street at a speed
13 that you had never seen before. If we go over the
14 page, you describe how one of them came across the
15 wasteground and stopped at the point that you have
16 marked as "D" and a second one stopped nearer to the
17 north end of block 1 of the Rossville Flats at
18 point "E", and a third continued south down
19 Rossville Street and you lost sight of it.
20 Can we have on the screen, please, P853?
21 This, again, is a photograph that we have from the
22 Sunday Times; do you think that is one of your
23 photographs?
24 A. Might well be, yes.
25 Q. Similarly, we have also got from the Sunday
1 Times P854; do you think that may be one of your
2 photographs?
3 A. May well be.
4 Q. If we look at your map, which is at M34.172,
5 just so we can get our bearings; in fact that Pig, that
6 Saracen that we have just been looking at in the
7 photographs ended up, the first time round at any rate,
8 facing that building that I am pointing to there, so it
9 is just slightly different?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You describe the second Saracen as having
12 ended up at point "E". Could we have on the screen,
13 please, photograph P188? This is a photograph that was
14 taken on the day and it shows a Saracen ending up not
15 quite at the point that you have mentioned, but almost
16 equidistant between block 1 of the Rossville Flats and
17 the gable end of Chamberlain Street. You, of course,
18 would be further up here at this stage, but would that
19 accord with your recollection as to the sort of
20 position that the Saracen ended up in?
21 A. Well, um, I do not have the recollection of
22 the exact point. It might have been a difference of a
23 few square metres, but certainly it was more or less
24 that position. I was there, not where the yellow
25 arrows point, my position was further down towards
1 Eden Place.
2 Q. It is the best I can do --
3 A. With the picture, yes, I appreciate --
4 LORD SAVILLE: Probably Mr Grimaldi was
5 somewhere at the end of Chamberlain Street by the time
6 this photograph was taken.
7 MR CLARKE: Yes, yes, but by the time he saw
8 the Saracens arrived.
9 LORD SAVILLE: That is how I understood it.
10 MR CLARKE: You said that one of the Saracens
11 disappeared from your view. I wonder whether that is
12 right. Can I tell you why I am asking: we have had a
13 lot of evidence that two Saracens described the path
14 you have indicated; one turned left off
15 Rossville Street and ended up in the position shown in
16 your photographs; one ended up here. At any rate,
17 initially the rest of them lined up -- you see them
18 just in this photograph -- along Rossville Street, up
19 to William Street; do you remember them taking that
20 position?
21 A. No, because -- I mean, if I say I lost sight
22 of them, it means I concentrated my attention on what
23 was closer to me. I did not pay attention to them any
24 more. They went towards Rossville Street, further down
25 Rossville Street, whether they stopped there or
1 somewhere else, I do not remember.
2 Q. If we go back, please, up to M34.56, can we
3 take it down to the end of paragraph 22? You describe
4 in paragraph 20 how the Saracen that was closest to you
5 had the front pointing towards the passageway between
6 blocks 1 and 2 and its back doors were towards you.
7 I think it is pretty clear, is it not, from your own
8 photograph that in fact the front of the vehicle was
9 facing towards the back of the Chamberlain Street
10 houses?
11 A. Yes, it might have moved about.
12 Q. Then you describe how the back doors opened
13 and eight to ten soldiers jumped out, carrying rifles
14 in their hands. Did they all appear to be carrying
15 rifles, or did some of them have batons?
16 A. I, I would not be able to specify that.
17 Q. You describe in paragraph 22 how the majority
18 of the Paratroopers started to pursue the crowd in
19 three general directions, the crowd who were going in
20 three general directions, and the remaining
21 Paratroopers stayed on either side of the Saracen.
22 If we could then have on the screen
23 paragraphs 23 to 25: you describe in paragraph 24 how
24 almost immediately after you saw them jump out of the
25 Saracen you heard the first shots ring out, each shot
1 sounding like a loud bang followed by a hiss. You go
2 on to say that you do not think that anyone was aware
3 at the time that they were live bullets.
4 Are you sure that these were live bullets
5 that you heard?
6 A. Given the fact that the effect of the bullets
7 was that people wounded people and the sound was the
8 same as those bullets, I presume that those were live
9 bullets, but in those days -- in those moments I did
10 not know the difference between live bullets and other
11 bullets.
12 Q. You describe the shooting as going on in
13 intervals with perhaps ten or twelve shots, then a
14 pause, then six or seven and so on, and you describe
15 seeing one Paratrooper standing next to the first
16 Saracen, firing from his shoulder.
17 Did you see what type of gun he had?
18 A. Their guns seemed to me to be all the same
19 and I learnt later on that these were Sterling guns,
20 high speed SLR guns, so they were described to me and
21 they seemed to be all the same, those that were in the
22 hands of the Paras.
23 Q. We know that most of the troops who had guns
24 with live weapons had what are indeed SLR, i.e.
25 self-loading rifles, a Sterling is a form of
1 machine-gun. In fact there were a few soldiers who had
2 machine-guns, but when you say that you saw a man
3 firing, was he firing with what appeared to be a rifle
4 or a sub-machine gun?
5 A. Well, it was a gun that would fire in
6 bursts. Whether that is a sub-machine gun or a rifle,
7 I am not an expert, but it would fire in bursts or in
8 single shots.
9 Q. The Paratrooper whom you refer to in the last
10 sentence of paragraph 24 you saw firing from his
11 shoulder; could you see what he was firing at?
12 A. Well, there was at the far end in front of
13 him, between -- I mean I was behind him, there was him
14 between and then there was a crowd, there was a crowd
15 fleeing. It was a rather fuzzy scene, so I would not
16 have been able to detect the exact target he was firing
17 at.
18 Q. Can you be confident it was he who was firing
19 as opposed your hearing the sound of fire and simply
20 seeing a soldier with a gun to his shoulder?
21 A. No, I would be pretty sure that he was firing
22 because I would have noticed the recoil. To say that
23 he fired, I would have noticed a recoil, an effect on
24 his body, one firing.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Grimaldi, to make sure
1 I have it clear: when you say, paragraph
2 24, "I remember seeing one Para, standing next to the
3 first Saracen", which Saracen are you referring to?
4 A. The one closest to me, on the left-hand side
5 looking at Rossville Flats.
6 MR CLARKE: Do you know which side of the
7 Saracen he was?
8 A. No.
9 Q. May we come, please, to M34.57, paragraphs 27
10 and 28? You describe in paragraph 27 one of the three
11 incidents that you remember that took place on the
12 wasteground and the first incident that you describe is
13 seeing a Paratrooper pursuing a boy who had a
14 handkerchief covering his face. The boy tripped and
15 fell, a Paratrooper stepped over him and you think put
16 a foot on him, pointed his gun at the boy and fired you
17 think one shot and the boy jerked and stayed on the
18 ground, and the Paratrooper moved away to the west; is
19 that right?
20 A. Yes, it is shown by the pictures, the
21 sequence of pictures.
22 Q. Let us look at that sequence of pictures, but
23 can we just see what you say about it in paragraph 28?
24 You attach the photographs that you are referring to
25 and express the view that there is a photograph missing
1 from the series, which shows a puff of dust coming up
2 from the ground which you believe to be a bullet
3 hitting the ground.
4 The photographs that you attach to your
5 statement, do you believe those photographs to be
6 yours?
7 A. I believe they are mine, yes.
8 Q. Can I suggest to you that they are not? Let
9 me explain why: can we have on the screen EP24.1?
10 These are photographs in the form in which they were
11 before Lord Widgery and they have written on the bottom
12 right-hand corner --
13 A. "Coleman Doyle".
14 Q. -- "Coleman Doyle" because that photographer
15 gave evidence to Lord Widgery and has given evidence to
16 this Tribunal, that he took these photographs. He has
17 also been able to produce P233.6. This is his contact
18 sheet for the four photographs which -- including the
19 four photographs which were marked EP24.1-4. You can
20 see that they show the sequence of events that are in
21 the full-scale prints and the next photograph in the
22 series, EP24.5, is in fact the photograph which shows
23 the Knight of Malta slumped down and the white wall
24 that we were looking at a little earlier. The
25 important point to note is that there is no picture
1 missing from the series.
2 I wonder whether in the light of that you
3 would agree that these photographs must be
4 Coleman Doyle's photographs?
5 A. These pictures have been with me ever since
6 Widgery Tribunal where I handed them into Lord Widgery
7 and they have been with me, and I have handed them to
8 this Inquiry to the press and so on. I have been --
9 I have been believing all the time throughout for the
10 past 30 years that they were mine. If, in the course
11 of the first days after the event this other
12 photographer handed them to me or whether I took them
13 myself, that might be a source of confusion.
14 In my opinion I was always convinced, having
15 had them with me all the time, I still have copies with
16 me at home, that they were mine.
17 Q. Do your copies have "Coleman Doyle" written
18 on them?
19 A. No.
20 Q. If we go back to the photographs themselves:
21 EP24.1, please. There we see two soldiers: one on the
22 left-hand side and one on the right; EP24.2, one can
23 see the boy on the ground and he is indeed wearing a
24 handkerchief around his face; EP24.3, the soldier on
25 the left is over the body of the boy on the ground and
1 the soldier on the right is beating somebody with a
2 baton; and EP24.4, the boy is left on the ground and
3 the soldier has moved off with his rifle to the west.
4 We can see where the other soldier is on the right-hand
5 side of the photograph.
6 Did you see what happened to the boy after he
7 ended up where we see him in this photograph?
8 A. No, I think by that time more or less -- at
9 that moment in time, after having witnessed this scene
10 whether through my eye or the camera, I went into
11 Eden Place and up Chamberlain Street. More or less
12 this must have been the time -- I would like to add
13 that this was the type of gun that most of the
14 Paratroopers had and I noticed.
15 Q. Thank you, that is an SLR.
16 Can we please go back to paragraph 28 on
17 M34.57? You describe in that paragraph how some years
18 ago you gave your negatives and pictures of this day,
19 together with negatives, pictures and films from other
20 occasions to the Irish Press, ABC and Jiorni. Do you
21 mean that you gave some of those photographs to the
22 Irish Press, some to ABC and some to Jiorni?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You did not keep any copies?
25 A. No, I did not have the negatives. I did keep
1 contact sheets and negatives of the pictures, which in
2 fact I provided the Inquiry with.
3 Q. I am not sure we have received contact
4 sheets?
5 A. Well, contact sheets perhaps not, but copies
6 certainly, yes, all the copies came from me.
7 Q. Do you have contact sheets?
8 A. No.
9 Q. May we look, please, at paragraphs 29 to 31
10 on this paragraph: you describe the second incident in
11 paragraph 29, which is seeing Paratroopers between
12 where you were standing and the north end of block 1,
13 pursuing people and beating them on the back with
14 batons. We see some that appearing in the photographs
15 we looked at a moment ago.
16 You then describe the third incident, which
17 is that a boy, who was close to a point that you mark
18 on the map, shouting "do not shoot, do not shoot" and a
19 Paratrooper standing to his left with a rifle; the boy
20 runs past the Paratrooper with his left hand covering
21 his face and as he runs you saw the Paratrooper aim his
22 gun at the boy, heard "bang bang", but did not see what
23 happened to the boy; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that is right.
25 Q. This is a different incident, is it, from
1 what we see in the photographs we were looking at a
2 moment ago?
3 A. It is a different incident.
4 Q. How far away was the Paratrooper from the boy
5 at the time when you heard the bang?
6 A. Well, pretty close. I would say four or five
7 metres.
8 Q. You say you saw the Paratrooper aim his gun
9 at the boy; is it possible that he was aiming at
10 something else and the boy ran past?
11 A. Well, no, my impression was from the distance
12 I saw this thing, this event happening. My impression
13 was that he was aiming at the boy.
14 Q. But you did not see him fall and you did not
15 see what happened?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You then at this stage, as I understand it,
18 moved down Eden Place and into Chamberlain Street. Can
19 you give us some idea as to how long you were in the
20 wasteground near Eden Place from the time when you
21 first saw the Saracens arrive until you moved off down
22 Eden Place and into Chamberlain Street?
23 A. Might have been five minutes perhaps, it is
24 difficult to say, though.
25 Q. May we come, please, to paragraphs 32 and 33
1 on M34.58: you describe walking south down
2 Chamberlain Street and there being a lot of people in
3 Chamberlain Street walking quickly towards the
4 Rossville Flats' car park. Were there also people
5 coming down from the top of Chamberlain Street, that is
6 to say from the William Street end?
7 A. Possibly, I do not remember. I was trying to
8 get my -- to get the hell out of there.
9 Q. Yes, I follow that. We have received already
10 some evidence that, at some stage, a soldier or
11 soldiers appeared round the corner of Eden Place -- can
12 I have the map, M34.172 -- roughly at the point
13 marked "C" on your map, but just about there, and that
14 shots were fired by one of the soldiers from
15 approximately that corner towards a building at the
16 junction between Chamberlain Street and Harvey Street.
17 Did you witness anything of the kind?
18 A. No.
19 Q. As you came down Chamberlain Street towards
20 the car park, were you conscious of firing taking place
21 or not?
22 A. I heard firing, yes.
23 Q. Could you tell where it seemed to be coming
24 from?
25 A. From the wasteground.
1 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraphs 33 to
2 35 on M34.58: you describe in paragraph 33 reaching
3 the southern end of Chamberlain Street, turning and
4 looking right -- "there was a hell of a lot of shooting
5 going on" -- and seeing one Paratrooper down on one
6 knee near the entrance to the car park from the
7 wasteground, aiming his rifle into the car park and
8 another Paratrooper standing by a Saracen, parked on
9 the wasteground to the north of block 1, and that
10 soldier was also aiming and shooting into the car park.
11 Can we go back to photograph P188? By this
12 stage, according to the evidence we have so far heard,
13 when you came out of Chamberlain Street, which is just
14 off to the right of the photograph, this Saracen car
15 would have been in the spot that it appears on this
16 photograph.
17 Do you remember it when you came out -- do
18 you remember seeing a Saracen there when you came out
19 of Chamberlain Street?
20 A. Yes, in fact I saw two Saracens: the one in
21 the picture and the one further down in the
22 wasteground; it is behind that wall, I think.
23 Q. Yes, it is. Are you able to indicate by
24 reference to this photograph where the Paratroopers
25 that you saw were, the one down on his knee and the
1 other standing by the Saracen?
2 A. Yes, the Para down on his knee must have been
3 behind the wall, the gable wall here at the end of
4 Chamberlain Street and the other Para must have been
5 close to this Saracen that is shown in the picture.
6 Q. Do you recall which side he was?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You describe both of those soldiers as aiming
9 their rifles into the car park. Were you able to tell
10 whether either of them was in fact shooting as opposed
11 to aiming?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you have any recollection of seeing any
14 other soldiers?
15 A. Yes, I have the recollection of seeing
16 several soldiers. These two I pointed my attention on,
17 but there were several soldiers. There was not only
18 the two of them, there were at least a dozen of them
19 all over the place.
20 Q. May we come back, please, to M34.58,
21 paragraphs 34 to 36: you describe how, at this stage,
22 part of the crowd were still in the car park and in
23 front of you people were crowding into the passageways
24 between the two blocks, the area in front of block 2
25 was crowded with people and there was a crowd to the
1 left of you in the corner of the car park.
2 I would like to show you, if I may, a
3 photograph that was taken by somebody else on the day:
4 it is EP28.5. It was a photograph that was taken from
5 the middle block of the Rossville Flats and it is a
6 photograph that was taken at a stage before the Saracen
7 that we see in the previous photograph had reached the
8 approximate spot where it eventually reached, and at a
9 time when Army vehicles were still coming down
10 Rossville Street. We can see that at this stage there
11 is quite a sizeable crowd of people running towards the
12 alleyway between block 1 and block 2 and towards the
13 alleyway between block 2 and block 3, and towards the
14 middle block.
15 When you got to the end of
16 Chamberlain Street, whose gable wall on the west side
17 appears there on the photograph, was that the sort of
18 scene going on or was the car park much less full in
19 the area that we can see in the photograph?
20 A. Much less full.
21 Q. Could we then come, please, to paragraph 35
22 on M34.58? You describe standing at the western gable
23 end of Chamberlain Street filled with astonishment and
24 anger and yelling in the direction of the wasteground
25 "bastards, stop it", which indeed you can hear appear
1 on the tape.
2 At that stage, had you seen anybody fall or
3 apparently having fallen in the car park?
4 A. No, I do not think so. I think on -- I think
5 I made a big effort to try and understand a succession
6 of events, but I think this occurred when I got to the
7 top of Chamberlain Street and I had not seen anybody on
8 the ground yet, and I turned round the corner of that
9 wall and I saw this fellow, this soldier aiming in one
10 direction with his gun and shooting was going on,
11 I mean, otherwise I would not have screamed that
12 sentence if there had not been shooting and he turned
13 towards me, but I do not recollect that at that stage
14 there was anybody on the ground.
15 Q. What you describe happening at this stage is
16 that there was a Paratrooper standing in the car park
17 to the northwest of you, wearing a helmet, a sturdy
18 strong tall man, holding his rifle at the hip and
19 aiming towards the passageway between blocks 1 and 2 of
20 the flats; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is he one of the two soldiers that you
23 referred to earlier in your statement?
24 A. There had been an interval between my moving
25 from Eden Place to the top of Chamberlain Street.
1 I certainly would not be able to recognise a soldier
2 with a gas mask or with a blackened face or anyhow the
3 distance from another.
4 Q. I have not made my question clear: can we
5 look at paragraph 33? You describe in this paragraph
6 the position as you reached the car park, and you
7 describe seeing one Paratrooper down on one knee and
8 another Paratrooper standing by a Saracen. Then in the
9 next paragraph, but one, paragraph 35, you describe the
10 strong, tall soldier standing holding his rifle at the
11 hip. Is he one of the soldiers --
12 A. No, no, he is another one.
13 Q. He is another one?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You say that he was holding his rifle at the
16 hip and aiming towards the passageway; how was he doing
17 that if he was holding it at the hip, was he just
18 pointing it in that direction?
19 A. Pointing, yes.
20 Q. Are you sure he was doing this rather than
21 firing from the shoulder?
22 A. I am pretty sure it was at the hip because he
23 turned round and I saw the movement, and suddenly I saw
24 the muzzle of the gun pointed at me, from the hip.
25 Q. Then somebody grasp you and pulls you into
1 the corner and you heard three shots close to where you
2 were standing; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you see where those shots landed?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did they appear to you to be shots fired by
7 this soldier you were speaking about?
8 A. That was everybody's impression round me when
9 they told me I was crazy to provoke them and that they
10 missed by very little, that was the general opinion of
11 people round me who had screamed at me for having been
12 provocative.
13 Q. May we come to paragraphs 36 and 37 on
14 M34.58: you say that at about the same time as you
15 were being pulled back, Susan North drew your attention
16 to soldiers coming south down Chamberlain Street
17 towards you and you saw a Saracen at the northern end
18 of Chamberlain Street and flanked on each side with
19 soldiers who were marching and not shooting; is that
20 right?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. The photograph which is attached to your
23 statement at M34.112, that is your photograph, is it?
24 A. Yes, definitely.
25 Q. Was that vehicle moving when you took this
1 photograph?
2 A. It was moving.
3 Q. And the soldiers were moving down as well?
4 A. Yes, in fact the tape says by Susan's voice
5 "can you not see they are coming up this way too?"
6 Q. May we come to paragraph 37 at M34.58: you
7 say that you think that it was at this point, although
8 it may have been before you shouted at the soldier,
9 that you saw, lying on the ground, the boy who we now
10 know to have been Jack Duddy lying face up with his
11 feet towards the direction of the wasteground and his
12 head towards block 2.
13 At the time when you first saw him, was he
14 alone or was there somebody beside him?
15 A. I have the feeling that there was already
16 somebody beside him, in fact the Knight of Malta man
17 and I think Father Daly was already there.
18 Q. In paragraph 38 at M34.59, you describe
19 noticing a priest moving towards him?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. You think, coming from the Chamberlain Street
22 side of the car park. In the light of what you have
23 just said, do you think perhaps the priest was already
24 there when you saw his body on the ground?
25 A. I am not sure whether he moved there or
1 whether he was already there; in any case he was very
2 close to the body.
3 Q. You also say in the same paragraph that you
4 saw a first aid man approach?
5 A. Mmm.
6 Q. Do you think you saw him approach or simply
7 that you saw that he was there?
8 A. I probably saw him approaching.
9 Q. You went up close to the boy and took some
10 now famous pictures. Can we have a look, please, at
11 EP26.12? It is apparent that you must have taken that
12 photograph from very close to; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. EP26.13; that I think is another of your
15 photographs, is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At this stage there is you taking these two
18 photographs of this small group round the body of Jack
19 Duddy. Were you conscious of there being other people
20 around in the car park, or were you so concentrating on
21 the photograph that you could not tell?
22 A. I was so concentrating on the photograph that
23 I could not tell.
24 Q. Could we have on the screen EP25.6? This is
25 one of the photographs taken by Gilles Peress and it
1 shows the same group as appear in your photograph:
2 Father Daly, the man we know to be Liam Bradley and the
3 Knight of Malta, Charles Glenn. It also shows,
4 I think, a man who appears but in a different position
5 in your photograph, with an anorak on the left-hand
6 side.
7 In the middle of this photograph there is a
8 man who is bent over, either because he is crouching
9 down or getting up; do you recollect seeing that man?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know what he is doing?
12 A. No, I think he is trying to avoid bullets;
13 everybody was.
14 Q. After the two photographs that you took,
15 I think your film then ran out unfortunately; is that
16 right?
17 A. Yes, and I changed it behind -- around that
18 group there.
19 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraphs 42
20 and 43 on M34.59: you describe in paragraph 42 how,
21 whilst you were standing in the area where Jack Duddy
22 was lying, you saw Gilles Peress in the car park -- no,
23 in a spot that you have indicated, which is at
24 point "M" on M34.173.
25 Could we have that on the screen, please?
1 You saw, as I understand it, Gilles Peress at
2 point "M", that is to say just before the gap between
3 blocks 2 and 3; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you describe seeing a Paratrooper
6 kneeling at point "N", which is I think there; is that
7 right?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Aiming his rifle at him and Gilles Peress did
10 an incredible form of somersault and landed hard on his
11 belly at the same time as a shot rang out. Can
12 I understand what was happening? When you saw Gilles
13 Peress there the first time, was he standing?
14 A. Yes. My attention was attracted to Gilles
15 Peress by his shouting "press, press". So I looked at
16 him and I saw him in that point and I saw him with his
17 hands raised and then I looked into the direction into
18 which he was shouting "press, press", he obviously
19 addressed somebody and then I saw this Paratrooper
20 aiming and then I turned round again to Peress and he
21 did this jump -- I do not know whether it was a
22 somersault, I do not think I used that term -- he
23 jumped and he tried to avoid the shot.
24 Q. Did he just throw himself on the ground?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could we have on the screen EP25.7? We know
2 from Mr Peress's evidence that he was indeed down in
3 the corner of the car park near the gap between
4 blocks 3 and block 2. This on the photograph is the
5 retaining wall that leads towards that gap. We know
6 that because he took a series of photographs, of which
7 this is one.
8 Could we have a look at the photograph
9 EP25.9, which is another one in the series? These
10 photographs show a group of people crawling towards the
11 gap between the two blocks, and in particular they show
12 a photograph of Patrick Doherty who was subsequently
13 killed on Bloody Sunday.
14 Could you see anything of this group; do
15 these pictures bring back any memories to you?
16 A. Yes, well people kept crawling from the
17 corner at the end of Chamberlain Street towards the
18 passageway in a trickle all the time and I certainly
19 saw this kind of movement as I myself went in the
20 corner at the top of Chamberlain Street.
21 But what I took a picture of was one single
22 man, I think it was Patrick Doherty, what was crawling
23 along and at that moment in time the trickle had
24 finished because people were too terrified and they
25 would not move out from that corner until I and Susan
1 took the initiative of, with a handkerchief, hoping
2 that our press status would preserve them being shot,
3 as we took the initiative to lead them out of the
4 corner into the passageway.
5 Q. You say you think you took a picture of a
6 single man who was Patrick Doherty crawling along?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where was he when you took this photograph?
9 A. I think he must have been further down, he
10 must have moved on. This must have been more or less
11 the moment in time when I decided to move in to get
12 away from the wasteground or the car park and move into
13 that corner where people were huddling hoping that they
14 would not be overtaken by Paras.
15 At that moment in time they probably felt
16 that corner was not under fire, but then the Paras
17 moved further up and they got under fire and that was
18 the moment of panic and that was more or less the
19 moment when I joined this group of people and then
20 moved on.
21 Q. Just a moment, I am trying to identify the
22 photograph you are talking about. Can we have
23 EP26.17? This is a photograph that you took?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is that the one you are referring to?
1 A. No, no, no. It is a single man, it is one
2 person that crawls. I think it is Patrick -- we always
3 identified it as Patrick Doherty.
4 Q. I am sure it is. Have you seen recently the
5 photograph that you are talking about?
6 A. Well, there we are, it is photograph 33,
7 M34.110.
8 Q. 110?
9 A. 110 and 109, the one before.
10 Q. You think those are your photographs, do you?
11 A. I think it is my photograph, yes.
12 Q. Again --
13 A. Somebody else claims it.
14 Q. Gilles Peress claims it and he has produced a
15 contact sheet which shows them.
16 A. In that case he must be right.
17 Q. Can we go back to M34.59 to paragraph 43?
18 You describe in that paragraph how, after you had
19 loaded your film, two or three others appeared around
20 Jack Duddy and together with the first aid man, picked
21 him up and moved him towards Chamberlain Street and you
22 walked backwards towards Chamberlain Street, taking
23 pictures of them as they went, one of which is
24 EP26.14. Can we have a look at that? This now very
25 famous photograph is yours; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you take more, as it were, in this
3 series, that is to say of people carrying Jack Duddy's
4 body which have not survived?
5 A. I think I have taken two or three of these
6 pictures, but I think one of them was -- became the
7 mural in Derry at the entrance of Derry Corner and it
8 is not exactly this one, it is a similar one, so I must
9 have taken two or three.
10 Q. I want to come to paragraph 44 at M34.60:
11 the question of the photograph of a civilian gunman.
12 Firstly, leaving aside the question of taking
13 any photograph, Father Daly has told us and others have
14 confirmed that whilst he was with Jack Duddy, he saw a
15 man move along the west gable wall of
16 Chamberlain Street, take a gun out of his pocket and
17 fire several shots round the corner.
18 Whether you took a photograph of it or not,
19 did you see that?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. You say that you have heard that someone has
22 taken one of the pictures that you took in the
23 Rossville Flats' car park and has blown it up to
24 produce a very fuzzy picture of the man who they say is
25 the gunman. Then you say:
1 "I did not specifically take a picture of
2 that man, he just happened to be there."
3 Can we have on the screen, please, E14.004?
4 This is the best copy that we have been able to make of
5 the photograph which we have had to take from a video
6 film which incorporated the photograph, but both the
7 negative and the original we have not yet discovered.
8 What it shows is a man with his hand towards his
9 pocket, so it would appear, moving along the gable wall
10 of Chamberlain Street, behind which we can see a couple
11 of soldiers at least kneeling.
12 Do you think that this is indeed one of your
13 photographs?
14 A. I do not know. I never saw a man with a
15 gun. I am not aware of having taken a picture of a man
16 with a gun. I might have aimed at the soldiers, if it
17 is my picture, but I am not at all sure that it is my
18 picture and I am surprised how one can describe this as
19 the picture of Fulvio Grimaldi showing a gunman.
20 I think it would be extremely difficult to identify
21 this fellow as a gunman. He might be, but where is the
22 gun?
23 Q. The gun, I suspect, is in his pocket?
24 A. Sorry, laughing.
25 Q. You laugh like that, but a number of
1 witnesses, including but not limited to Bishop Daly,
2 have referred to a gunman moving in exactly that
3 position, taking a gun out of his pocket and firing it
4 and have indicated that he was in approximately the
5 position that is shown in this photograph?
6 A. There are also witnesses that say that people
7 were firing from the roofs of Rossville Flats, which is
8 another incredible statement.
9 Q. Bishop Daly may be wrong, I suppose.
10 Can we have a look, please, at 1223 -- that
11 is the wrong reference. Give me a moment.
12 A. Sorry, can I add that had I seen a gunman and
13 had I been aware of taking a picture of a gunman,
14 I would have said so in all my statements.
15 Q. Can we try L213: this is the Sunday Times'
16 article that appeared in April 1972. What they wrote
17 there was this:
18 "The photographer, Fulvio Grimaldi, also saw
19 this gunman and took a picture of the gunman. He also
20 is certain that the gunman did not appear until after
21 the Army had killed Duddy and wounded others:
22 "We know who this gunman was: a member of the
23 Creggan section of the Official IRA. As with most
24 other IRA men we spoke to, we had to agree not to
25 disclose his name."
1 Did you tell the Sunday Times that you had
2 taken a photograph of the gunman whom you saw and that
3 he did not appear until after the Army had killed
4 Duddy?
5 A. This is utter and total manipulation. One
6 knows in the service of whom the Sunday Times Insight
7 team works.
8 Q. That is just false, is it?
9 A. Absolutely.
10 Q. Can we have a look at T382? This is a book
11 entitled "Eyewitness Bloody Sunday", which is a very
12 well-known work by Don Mullan.
13 At T384, he has written:
14 "Once the Army had begun to open fire on the
15 fleeing crowd, one man, positioned close to the gable
16 of Chamberlain Street, stepped forward from a group of
17 three or four people and discharged two or three shots
18 from a revolver. He was immediately told by civilians
19 nearby to 'fuck off', for fear that he would draw Army
20 fire on them. Italian photographer Fulvio Grimaldi
21 photographed this man"; he has the wrong end of the
22 stick as well, has he?
23 A. Yes, yes, but it is his statement whether he
24 reports something that other people said, I do not
25 know, but I was never aware of photographing a gunman,
1 that is as simple as that.
2 Q. If we go back to M34.60, paragraph 44. If
3 you were never aware of photographing a gunman, what is
4 the explanation for what appears in the second sentence
5 of paragraph 44:
6 "Susan Susan North believed that one of the
7 photographs I took in the Rossville Flats' car park
8 showed a civilian gunman"?
9 A. Well, you might have asked her this.
10 Q. I did ask her this, but I am asking you
11 because this is in your statement.
12 A. If -- I say that Susan believed -- she
13 obviously expressed the belief or the opinion or the
14 suspicion that I might have taken a photograph of a
15 gunman.
16 Q. She must have seen a photograph, must she
17 not?
18 A. She must have seen that photograph that
19 everybody interprets as a gunman, I do not think there
20 is any reason to believe for sure it is a gunman
21 because I cannot see a gun.
22 Q. She must have believed that was your
23 photograph?
24 A. She must have believed that, yes.
25 MR TOOHEY: Mr Clarke, what do we know about
1 the provenance of this particular photograph?
2 MR CLARKE: What we know of the provenance of
3 the photograph is that the only copy of it that we have
4 been able to derive is from one of the documentaries in
5 relation to Bloody Sunday, so that it appears on a
6 video copy of the documentary, therefore, what has had
7 to be done is that a still has had to be made of a
8 video and the best copy of that photograph is that
9 which we have -- which I have just put on the screen,
10 but we have never had the original -- an original
11 print, nor have we ever had the negative.
12 MR TOOHEY: What information do we have as to
13 the authorship of the photograph itself?
14 MR CLARKE: The evidence we have is what is
15 contained in the documents that I have been putting to
16 Mr Grimaldi, paragraph 44 of this statement and the
17 evidence that we heard from Susan North yesterday,
18 coupled with the absence of any indication of anybody
19 else having taken the photograph?
20 A. Sorry, could I suggest one asks Channel 4 for
21 the origin of that photograph or for that photograph?
22 Q. Yes, we have tried that and so far got no
23 luck as to where they got what appears on their
24 programme from, we have certainly tried that.
25 When Susan North gave evidence yesterday, her
1 recollection was that she saw, either at the
2 Widgery Tribunal or at the time of the
3 Widgery Tribunal, a photograph with a number of people
4 in it that was said to indicate a man with a pistol in
5 his hand.
6 Do you have any knowledge of that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It is not the case, is it, that you in fact
9 took the photograph that we see on the screen that
10 I showed a moment ago and held it back for some reason?
11 A. Most certainly not, and I very much doubt
12 that I took that photograph. I think it would have
13 emerged earlier. I think really that over the past
14 three years you should have had a chance of asking
15 Channel 4 where they got the photograph from.
16 Q. Yes, we have tried that.
17 May we then come, please, to M34.60,
18 paragraphs 45 to 47: you describe how, as Jack Duddy
19 was carried past, you could still see the Saracen at
20 the northern end of Chamberlain Street, presumably
21 moving down Chamberlain Street by now; is that right?
22 A. Probably have moved on and stopped somewhere.
23 Q. You describe how shortly after that a woman
24 was carried past you into Chamberlain Street?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. That was Mrs Deery. Then in the next
2 paragraph how your attention was drawn to what we now
3 know to have been almost certainly Michael Bridge,
4 standing in the car park with his arms raised, shouting
5 "shoot me, shoot me", which then happened.
6 I wonder whether you have the sequence of
7 events right in this respect: the shooting of
8 Michael Bridge, did that not happen before Jack Duddy
9 was taken up into Chamberlain Street?
10 A. Might well be. I started trying to recall
11 this 27 years after the event. It might have well been
12 during the -- Jack Duddy, after the Jack Duddy
13 shooting, before Peggy Deery or after. I am sure it
14 happened within moments in that area at that moment in
15 time, but I cannot be 100 per cent sure whether it was
16 just before or just after.
17 Q. Let me show you a photograph that you may or
18 may not have seen before: photograph P740, please.
19 This is a photograph that was taken on the day and it
20 shows a number of people round Jack Duddy's body in the
21 middle of the photograph and the man who may be
22 Michael Bridge on the right-hand side.
23 The second photograph, P741, was taken
24 immediately after the previous photograph and is indeed
25 the one we have seen before, in which what is almost
1 certainly Michael Bridge on the left-hand side of the
2 photograph.
3 Where were you, do you recall, when you saw
4 Michael Bridge fall?
5 A. I think I was -- I still believe most likely
6 that it was after Jack Duddy had been taken away and
7 immediately afterwards I -- in fact this photograph
8 shows that the car park is empty and it has probably
9 been after Jack Duddy's body has been taken away. This
10 is my recollection, I cannot be 100 per cent sure.
11 Q. My question was: do you know where you were
12 when you saw Michael Bridge fall?
13 A. I think at the top of Chamberlain Street.
14 Q. Were you able to see any soldier at the time
15 when Michael Bridge fell?
16 A. I have no recollection of that because
17 I might have been behind the gable wall and out of
18 sight from the soldiers.
19 Q. Could we have on the screen EP28.1? This is
20 a photograph that was taken on the day, but
21 considerably earlier. We can see the large crowd then
22 assembling in Rossville Street and the wasteground.
23 Here on the right-hand side is the end of
24 Chamberlain Street, and at the time when this
25 photograph was taken there is a motorcar parked
1 immediately in front of the west gable wall of
2 Chamberlain Street.
3 Do you have any recollection of whether that
4 car was there when you got into -- came to the end of
5 Chamberlain Street?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You cannot remember one way or the other?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You then describe in your statement going
10 into the house and seeing Mrs Deery and Michael Bridge
11 and taking photographs of both of those and attempting,
12 at one stage, to get out of the house by climbing over
13 the back wall?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And being warned not to do so. Can you give
16 us any idea of how long you stayed in No. 33
17 Chamberlain Street?
18 A. I think three to four minutes perhaps.
19 Q. Could we have a look, please, at paragraph 53
20 on M34.61? You say that as you left by the front door
21 there was a Saracen in the street almost blocking the
22 entry to the house, with a soldier standing between the
23 Saracen and the front door and you describe having to
24 squeeze past him and he standing there with his mouth
25 open, staring and looking shocked and completely
1 shattered, and not registering what you were telling
2 him.
3 What was it that you were telling him that
4 was not registering?
5 A. "Press, press, press, press".
6 Q. But in any event you were let through?
7 A. Yes, he did not react; he was stunned.
8 Q. Was there an officer around?
9 A. I only saw that soldier.
10 Q. May we then come to paragraph 56: you
11 describe in this paragraph how you came to stand in the
12 corner of the car park of the flats and saw a
13 middle-aged man at approximately point "P" on your
14 map 2, crawling along by the concrete wall towards the
15 passageway between blocks 2 and 3, pulling himself
16 along on his arms and then saw him jerk and carry on
17 crawling towards the passageway. You identify that man
18 whom you saw as being in the photograph that is
19 attached to your statement.
20 Can we look at that, M34.109? Which is the
21 man whom you saw jerk, then carry on crawling --
22 A. The man with the handkerchief.
23 Q. The man with the handkerchief. Thank you.
24 May we then go to paragraph 57 on M34.62:
25 you describe seeing a few people take courage and crawl
1 from the corner in the same direction and there came a
2 time when you decided that it was better to try and
3 rescue the crowd in the corner than to stay there.
4 You took Susan's handkerchief, shouted
5 "press, press" and one by one you moved from the
6 corner out towards the passageway between the two
7 blocks; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In paragraph 59 you describe moving across
10 towards the passageway when there was a lot of
11 shooting, with the heavier shooting as you actually
12 reach the passageway, and as you were there a shot hit
13 one of the pillars above you close to your head and
14 chips from the pillar actually hit your head.
15 Could we have a look, please, at photograph
16 P292? This is a photograph not taken on Bloody Sunday,
17 but it shows the alleyway between block 3 on the left
18 and block 2 on the right and the retaining wall is
19 pointed out by the red arrow I have put on the screen.
20 We can see that there is a slender concrete
21 pillar which supports the walkways between the two
22 blocks. Is that the pillar that was struck by a
23 bullet?
24 A. It must have been. In fact in my
25 recollection, but given that everything was changed and
1 I never seen it again after that day in its original
2 shape, I had the impression that the pillar was further
3 on the right and -- of the passageway, not on the left,
4 looking into the passageway, but it is the only pillar,
5 so it must have been that pillar.
6 Q. When you arrived towards this alleyway, did
7 you ever see anybody with a weapon?
8 A. No. As I said before, I never saw anybody
9 with a weapon really, I would have understood people
10 pulling out weapons in those circumstances just for
11 sheer self-defence, but I never saw anybody with a
12 weapon.
13 Q. Can we come to paragraphs 60 and 61 on
14 M34.62? You describe in paragraph 60 how you got to
15 the alleyway and could not move on any further because
16 there were already some other people there in front of
17 you who could not move on, and you decided that you
18 would lead the way for the second group who had reached
19 the passageway before you and you led them through to
20 the back of the flats.
21 Does that mean that when you came round the
22 south of the flats, the other side of the flats, there
23 was you and Susan North and some of the people in this
24 group who you had found at the alleyway when you had
25 got there?
1 A. Certainly Susan North was not with me. She
2 was either in front or behind, but I lost sight of her
3 for several minutes in that phase.
4 Q. When you came round to the south, the front
5 of the flats, were you with a group of people?
6 A. As I came round to the back of the flats?
7 Q. The back of the flats, sorry.
8 A. I do not know, I think I moved with a group
9 of people because it was a lot of people that were
10 pushing through, anxious to get through to safety and
11 I also remember -- this comes in the next paragraph --
12 this other line of people moving along block 2 and
13 trying to get to the passage and to safety with a scene
14 of the boy and the girl that I thought were hit by
15 bullets.
16 Q. You describe seeing a boy in his 20s and
17 a girl a few years younger and describing seeing the
18 boy and the girl, as you thought, being hit by bullets,
19 and you say you first saw the boy jerking and moving on
20 and the girl screaming and grabbing her left arm while
21 moving on.
22 How confident are you that either of them had
23 in fact been shot?
24 A. Well, you must imagine that if shooting was
25 going on and the Paras were very close, I would say a
1 few yards, and we were in panic; we were pushing
2 through this very narrow alleyway, splinters from the
3 concrete wall or pillar were showering us and at that
4 moment in time as I pushed through with all the other
5 people, I see from the corner of my eye this line of
6 people coming up and I see this scene of these two
7 yelling and shouting and hoping and crying and weeping
8 and despairing and having this kind of reaction, and
9 then I moved through to the other side of the flats.
10 My impression was that they, as others I had
11 seen before, had been shot, because I saw them in the
12 line with Paratroopers shooting to the crowd and
13 shooting at the pillar.
14 Q. Could I have on the screen M34.129? This is
15 the first written statement that you made to the
16 Widgery Tribunal.
17 In paragraph 6 at M34.130 you said this:
18 "After three or four minutes we came out and
19 went round the car park by the concrete wall at its
20 edge. I saw a group of 15 or so people taking cover in
21 the corner. Some more were crawling along the wall.
22 There were some sporadic shots. I called the people to
23 follow Susan and me and waving a handkerchief I went
24 along by the concrete wall. We went down the steps and
25 along the wall parallel to the centre building I saw
1 people crawling towards us. Firing started again and
2 they stayed put. We crossed over to the passageway
3 towards Joseph Place."
4 You do not appear in that paragraph, nor did
5 you in your oral evidence to Lord Widgery, you do not
6 appear to have regarded them as having been injured in
7 any way?
8 A. The Widgery Inquiry was a very disturbing
9 experience. First of all, the -- Widgery and his
10 Counsel did not want me to speak about anything about
11 being shot at behind the window in the second floor of
12 the flats. I had to insist and Counsel for the victims
13 had to insist for me to speak also about other
14 experiences, as I had been there from the beginning to
15 the end. So I had to assist and people were -- Widgery
16 and his Counsel were very impatient with me. They were
17 arrogant and aggressive and they wanted me to go
18 through this very quickly. So I gave him a summary and
19 I was highly intimidated by the behaviour of Gibbens,
20 the Counsel and Widgery himself, who did not want to
21 seem to hear about these things.
22 Q. That I understand. I have done you a slight
23 injustice. If we look at M34.148, what I said a moment
24 ago is inaccurate because what I should have remembered
25 that you said was this, if I can point out to you the
1 exact passage:
2 "Answer: When I got to this stage where
3 there is a low wall, people are grouped here. As they
4 saw me getting through with a white handkerchief they
5 caught up and the firing intensified immediately.
6 I saw a woman and a young boy drop back into that
7 position. I assumed they were hit. I do not know."
8 A. You see Mr Stocker, who was on the other side
9 of the fence, insisted on me speaking about these
10 things and so I went into detail. Your justice was
11 kind, Mr Gibbens' justice was unkind.
12 Q. Is that what it amounts to: you saw them
13 drop back and you simply assumed they were hit?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. May we then come, please, to paragraph 62 at
16 M34.62: you describe coming through the passageway and
17 there being about 50 people sheltering along the south
18 side of block 2 and you immediately saw a body of a man
19 lying on the ground ahead of you, whom we now know to
20 be Patrick Doherty, and you took photographs of that
21 body.
22 May we have a look, please, at EP26.17: here
23 we see the first photograph that you took, with
24 Patrick Doherty lying in the position that we see and
25 Patrick Walsh, as we now know behind him.
1 At the time when you took this photograph,
2 was Patrick Walsh crawling out towards Patrick Doherty?
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. The next photograph, or what appears to be
5 the next photograph, is EP26.18, which, as we can see,
6 is taken looking towards Glenfada Park, along the south
7 of the middle block. It is quite plain that at this
8 stage there are no people, let alone 50 people, along
9 the south wall.
10 What had happened to the people who had been
11 there?
12 A. If we could look round the corner at the end
13 of the passage, you would see them huddling around the
14 telephone box and the passageway between block 1
15 and 2. As they moved in, they moved through, they saw
16 people dead on the ground, so they felt they were
17 unsafe there.
18 Q. The next photograph is EP26.19, which is
19 looking back again towards Patrick Doherty and
20 Patrick Walsh; is that the sequence in which the
21 photographs were taken?
22 A. I do not know because it seems to me that
23 this photograph was taken earlier because the distance
24 between Walsh and Doherty is bigger, but it could be an
25 effect of the photograph.
1 Q. May we please look at paragraph 63 at
2 M34.63: you describe how, having seen Patrick Doherty
3 lying on the ground, you saw to your right a man moving
4 towards the body diagonally from the area of the shops
5 at the bottom of block 2. He took three to four steps
6 and then his head jerked back, his face whipped round
7 to the left, his body spun around and he collapsed and
8 he fell in the position parallel to Patrick Doherty,
9 and that man we now know to have been Barney McGuigan.
10 If we go back to EP26.18: is this a
11 photograph taken after Barney McGuigan fell?
12 A. No, I would say not because I do not see
13 Barney McGuigan here.
14 Q. There is what looks like a body lying on the
15 ground where I have pointed the yellow arrow; do you
16 think that is him?
17 A. I would not know, it could be Hugh Gilmore.
18 Q. It is not for me to give evidence, but I do
19 not think so because Hugh Gilmore was at the corner of
20 block 1, which is I think hidden from the line of sight
21 as taken by this photograph?
22 A. In that case it probably is Barney McGuigan.
23 Q. Are you conscious of having taken a
24 photograph of Barney McGuigan from this spot?
25 A. Yes, because it was more or less at the same
1 -- very few seconds after I noticed, coming round,
2 Patrick Doherty on the ground, the man crawling towards
3 him, pumping air into him and then I noticed this
4 movement and the collapse and the fall of this man,
5 Barney McGuigan.
6 MR TOOHEY: Mr Grimaldi, to your right, the
7 question I am about to ask you may already have been
8 answered in the last sentence, but at the time you took
9 the photograph of the man whom you now understand to
10 have been Mr McGuigan, had Patrick Walsh reached the
11 body of Patrick Doherty, or can you not say?
12 A. I cannot say, I cannot tell you the exact
13 timing really. You imagine the confusion and the havoc
14 and the turmoil that we were in. I do not know whether
15 he had reached him; whether he was close to him, I do
16 not know.
17 MR CLARKE: Could we have a look, please, at
18 paragraphs 66 and 67 on M34.63? You say in
19 paragraph 66:
20 "Looking at my photographs since, in an
21 earlier photograph marked EP26/18 ... you can see
22 towards Rossville Street and the telephone box; there
23 is no Saracen there. In the later photographs ... a
24 Saracen is visible. At the time Barney McGuigan was
25 shot, therefore, the Saracens had not gone beyond the
1 barricade. Where else could the shot have come from
2 other than the City Walls?"
3 Have you considered the possibility that
4 Barney McGuigan was shot from the Glenfada Park North
5 area?
6 A. I was not aware of any presence of Army in
7 Glenfada Park North, given what I say here, that -- in
8 the first photograph, immediately after his being shot,
9 there is nothing that points at an Army presence behind
10 him.
11 Q. You are not conscious of having seen any
12 soldiers around at this stage, are you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. One of the puzzling things for the Tribunal
15 to grapple with is this: as I understand your
16 recollection, at the time when Barney McGuigan was
17 shot, he was looking towards the body of
18 Patrick Doherty?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. We know that he was shot by a bullet that
21 entered the right-hand side of the back of his head and
22 came out through his left eye. If he was looking
23 towards the body of Patrick Doherty when he was shot,
24 it is difficult, is it not, to see how he can have been
25 shot from the walls?
1 A. Possibly, but you also can imagine a
2 situation where Barney McGuigan moves out from the
3 crowd huddling around the telephone box, moving towards
4 Doherty, trying to help him, people shouting at him "do
5 not go out, do not go out, it is dangerous"; he looking
6 back, he looking forth, he looking back, he looking
7 forth.
8 Q. Yes, it is certainly possible.
9 Can we look at paragraph 67: you describe
10 there looking away from Barney McGuigan, back towards
11 Patrick Doherty, and seeing a man crawling out towards
12 the body who tried to give mouth-to-mouth resuscitation
13 to Patrick Doherty. That is obviously the
14 Patrick Walsh who appears in your photograph?
15 A. Must be, yes.
16 Q. I think in the light of the answers you have
17 given that you are not quite sure as to the sequence as
18 to when exactly he got towards Patrick Doherty, whether
19 it was before or after McGuigan was shot?
20 A. Yes, correct.
21 Q. Did you ever see Patrick Walsh retreating
22 from going out towards Patrick Doherty?
23 A. I do not remember, but I must have seen him
24 because at some stage later on, Doherty was lying on
25 his own again and there was nobody around him before he
1 was taken away, I do not know at what moment in time.
2 So I can imagine that Walsh, having realised that
3 Doherty was dead, had withdrawn, but I am not sure,
4 I do not remember having seen that.
5 Q. Did you yourself see a time when
6 Patrick Doherty was alone without Patrick Walsh?
7 A. I took a picture of Patrick Doherty on his
8 own without Walsh being around him.
9 Q. Did you?
10 A. I think so.
11 Q. I am not sure ...
12 A. If we have all the pictures.
13 Q. The pictures that we have, EP26.7 -- we have
14 looked at them already. There is EP26.17, which is the
15 two of them together; EP26.18, which does not show
16 Patrick Doherty; and EP26.19, which has the two of them
17 together. I am not sure that we have seen a photograph
18 which shows Patrick Doherty alone?
19 A. I think that when I went round the corner
20 I saw Doherty on his own for a few seconds before
21 noticing Walsh crawling gradually and slowly towards
22 him.
23 Q. Sorry, I said a moment ago that the entry to
24 Bernard McGuigan was on the right side of the head; it
25 was the left side of the head and the exit was on the
1 right eye; it is the other way round.
2 Can we then come, please, to paragraph 68 at
3 M34.63? You say that at some point you went towards
4 Patrick Doherty and went down to pick up a handkerchief
5 and that you were told afterwards that as you bent down
6 bullets hit the wall above you.
7 Forget what you were told afterwards: at the
8 time when you went to pick up a handkerchief were you
9 conscious of any bullets hitting a wall anywhere near
10 you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. But you were told that was what happened?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you say you took that to mean the wall at
15 the southeast end of block 2. Can I just understand
16 which wall you are referring to? May we have on the
17 screen photograph P721? This is a photograph taken at
18 a later stage. This is the body of Patrick Doherty
19 round which there are a number of people, including
20 Mr Walsh, but also with others.
21 There is a wall which we can see at the back
22 of that photograph, which is a continuation of the
23 retaining wall in the Rossville Flats' car park. The
24 shops and the canopy and the south side of block 2 are
25 on the left-hand side of the photograph. Is that wall
1 that we can see the wall that you are referring to in
2 paragraph 68, or are you referring to some other wall?
3 A. I think it is very likely that that is the
4 wall, if this is the wall behind which we move up to
5 the city walls, then that should be the wall, yes.
6 Q. The steps up to the general direction of the
7 city wall are those steps, but that is the wall you
8 took it to be, is it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You describe in paragraph 68 how you picked
11 up three bullets. Are you able to be more precise as
12 to where you picked the bullets up?
13 A. Well, more or less in -- at the moment in
14 time when I tried to approach Doherty and then picked
15 up the handkerchief and returned towards the area where
16 all the people were around the telephone box. I think
17 that that was the moment in time that I picked them up.
18 I might have picked them up, not all of them
19 together. I mean, I moved a lot around in that area
20 between Doherty, McGuigan, Gilmore and so on, taking
21 pictures, forcing back. It was during those moments,
22 I do not exactly recollect where and when exactly, but
23 that I picked up -- I know I picked up three bullets
24 and those were the bullets that ended up in Widgery's
25 Tribunal.
1 Q. Were some at least of the three bullets that
2 you picked up, or at least one, a bullet or bullets
3 that were picked up close to where Patrick Doherty lay?
4 A. It was in the area -- distances were very
5 close from one point to the other, between perhaps --
6 between Doherty and McGuigan the distance might have
7 been six, seven metres, if I am not totally wrong. So
8 that was the area.
9 Q. If we go back to paragraph 68 which is on the
10 screen, you describe how, later on, as you were
11 standing at the southwestern corner of block 1 another
12 to the telephone box, people asked you if you were
13 interested in more bullets and some boys brought you
14 five or six bullets from around the rubble barricade.
15 Do you mean by that that they told you that
16 that is where they had picked them up?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You did not see them pick them up --
19 A. No, no, they were brought to me -- at the end
20 of the shooting.
21 Q. You describe how later on the same evening at
22 the McFadden house some boys brought you cartridges and
23 some more bullets, about 40 in number, which they told
24 you they had found in the area of the Rossville Flats'
25 car park; is that right?
1 A. Yes, people were aware that I was one of the
2 very few people who had given the chance of collecting
3 evidence of what was going on that day and they thought
4 that the bullets and cartridges would help provide
5 evidence for the event and their responsibilities.
6 Q. If we then come, please, to paragraphs 69 to
7 72, you describe how at this stage you moved along the
8 front of the shops in block 2 and when you reached the
9 western end of the shop fronts, you saw yet another
10 body which was, I think, the body of Hugh Gilmore; is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could we have a look, please, at EP26.20:
14 this is, I think, one of your photographs in which we
15 can see the bodies of Bernard McGuigan and Hugh Gilmore
16 on the right-hand side. The previous photograph in the
17 EP series, EP26.19, if we can remind ourselves of that
18 on the screen, shows the body of Patrick Doherty.
19 Are you able to give us any indication of how
20 much time elapsed between these two photographs?
21 A. It is really difficult to say after all this
22 time. I wish we had had the Inquiry six months after
23 the event. I think some -- perhaps seven, eight
24 minutes.
25 Q. If we come back to paragraphs 71 and 72 on
1 M34.64, you describe in paragraph 71 how you stood at
2 the corner by the southern end of block 1 of the flats
3 listening to people and taking photographs and you saw
4 two more bodies on the rubble barricade, lying towards
5 the middle of the barricade on the south side, crumpled
6 in a foetal position and very close together.
7 That is what you saw, is it?
8 A. Yes. I am not quite sure whether I stood at
9 the corner by the southern end of block 1 when I saw
10 this. This was very early after my turning into
11 Joseph Place from the front of the blocks and when no
12 Saracen or Army had appeared yet beyond the rubble
13 barricade, as I took pictures of Barney McGuigan and --
14 the initial pictures and I certainly moved down and
15 then moved up again, but that was the moment in time
16 when I saw these bodies on the rubble barricade.
17 Q. Did you ever take any pictures of those
18 bodies?
19 A. No, they were too distant for my
20 50 millimetre lens.
21 Q. You describe in the next paragraph how, at
22 more or less the same time, you saw somebody cross
23 Rossville Street by the barricade, get shot at and fall
24 to the ground and then after a time he picked himself
25 up and joined you at the corner and that you now
1 believe to have been Alexander Nash.
2 When you say that "he crossed
3 Rossville Street by the barricade", do you mean that he
4 went from the west side of Rossville Street to the east
5 side, or do you mean something else?
6 A. I mean he went from the west side of
7 Rossville Street to the east side, to the flats.
8 Q. You saw him fall, did you, in the course of
9 crossing?
10 A. Yes, and from that moment onwards I lost
11 sight of him. I might have been attracted by some
12 other event, but then I was told that this man who had
13 been crossing and shot at was the man I later saw as
14 Mr Nash.
15 Q. Were you able to see whether or not he had in
16 fact been hit at the time when you saw him fall down?
17 A. No.
18 Q. But you did see him later and that is --
19 I think we see him in photograph EP26.20, 21?
20 LORD SAVILLE: This photograph I think shows
21 him.
22 MR CLARKE: I am not sure that it does. Can
23 we go back to EP26.20? There is a man there who I have
24 always believed to be Barney McFadden. I do not know
25 whether you are in a position to recognise that man?
1 A. Most certainly not.
2 LORD SAVILLE: I think you are right,
3 Mr Clarke, it is just he had a cap on.
4 MR CLARKE: If we go to EP26.21, the same man
5 --
6 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, you have got them both
7 there, yes.
8 MR CLARKE: I think what is pretty
9 unquestionably Alexander Nash is there on the left. Is
10 that the man that you saw cross?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You said "certainly not" a moment ago; did
13 you mean by that that "I can tell you that the man you
14 are referring to is not Barney McFadden", or you do not
15 know whether he is or he is not?
16 A. No, I do not know whether he is or he is not.
17 Q. What we see in this photograph is that by now
18 a Saracen is doing some sort of manoeuvre on the
19 left-hand side of the photograph.
20 Do you know what it was doing?
21 A. No, I do not remember.
22 Q. We know then that you took a number of
23 photographs, which we need not go through, to the south
24 of the barricade.
25 What I want to ask you about is this: can we
1 have a look at photograph EP26.25? That is
2 a photograph of Barney McGuigan's body, now covered by
3 a scarf with, I think, somebody removing a coat and
4 people on the left about to put on it a blanket.
5 Did you see the sequence of events around
6 Barney McGuigan's body?
7 A. No, I do not remember. I must have seen --
8 I think this is my picture, is a picture of mine, so
9 I must have seen it, but I -- when one takes pictures,
10 one concentrates on taking pictures, one is not aware
11 of events happening outside the lens, one concentrates
12 on there. But I certainly must have seen all this.
13 Q. I want, if I may, to come to what happened
14 next, namely your going inside the Rossville Flats in
15 order to telephone an Italian newspaper.
16 You describe at the top of M34.65, moving up
17 the stairs inside the entrance and seeing on the first
18 landing a body completely covered by a yellow blanket
19 and there is a photograph of what you saw, which
20 appears in your book "Blood on the Street".
21 May we have M34.121: that is the photograph
22 as it appears in "Blood on the Street".
23 Is that your photograph?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We know, then, that you got to a flat in
1 Rossville Street and when you were there, you took at
2 least one photograph. Can we have on the screen
3 M34.122: is that a photograph that you took from this
4 flat?
5 A. Yes, the only photographs taken from this
6 flat are mine; there was no-one else there.
7 Q. Can you help me on this: I may be going
8 crazy, but it appears to me as if this photograph has
9 been developed back to front?
10 A. So it seems to me too.
11 Q. Of course you were in block 1, which is on
12 the right-hand side of Rossville Street?
13 A. Exactly.
14 Q. And you are looking towards Kells Walk, which
15 I think we can see here which is on the left-hand side,
16 whereas the order has been reversed?
17 A. Yes, exactly.
18 Q. Could we come, please, to paragraph 77 on
19 M34.65: you describe in this paragraph how you dialled
20 the operator, who said that it would take some minutes
21 to connect you, and you asked to look out of the lady's
22 window and you put your head and camera out of the
23 bottom of the window, took pictures, a copy of which we
24 can see in your book.
25 You then describe how, shortly after moving
1 away from the window, a bullet crashed through the
2 glass.
3 Do you recollect how long you were with your
4 head and camera outside the bottom of the window taking
5 pictures?
6 A. I would not say more than 20, 30 seconds.
7 Q. I think you took three pictures; is that
8 right?
9 A. Mmm (witness nodding).
10 Q. You say:
11 "Shortly after moving away from the window,
12 a bullet crashed ...". Can we take it this way: do we
13 know how far you had got from the window?
14 A. Not more than a yard or a yard and a half.
15 Q. One bullet came through. Then you describe
16 in paragraph 79, how, about ten seconds later, a second
17 bullet came through and then in paragraph 80, how,
18 about 20 seconds later, there were four more shots in
19 rapid succession.
20 Can we have on the screen EP31? Am I right
21 in thinking that this is one of your photographs?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. EP32: is that one of your photographs too?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And EP33.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recollect when you took those
3 photographs?
4 A. Well, in succession because the first one
5 I think I took it after the first shot, it was very
6 good evidence for what was happening.
7 Q. If we go back to that, EP31?
8 A. I think I took the first photograph after the
9 first shot and the other ones after the following
10 shots.
11 Q. So these are photographs taken in the flat?
12 A. In the flat.
13 Q. On the very day?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could we have a look, please, at M34.123?
16 LORD SAVILLE: Just before we leave this
17 photograph, Mr Grimaldi, on the face of it, it looks as
18 though it has been taken outside rather than inside, is
19 that a trick of the light or something?
20 A. I wonder, but it would be very difficult from
21 a distance to take that kind of detail, you would have
22 to have a long distance lens.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Indeed, yes.
24 A. And you would think that this image at the
25 centre would be a reflection.
1 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, but I do not think there
2 would be a window at the other side of that room. Your
3 recollection is that you took a photograph soon after
4 the shot --
5 A. I took pictures from inside, yes.
6 MR CLARKE: Could we have on the screen
7 EP35.1? That is, I think, the same photograph --
8 A. From outside.
9 Q. That is plainly taken from outside?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that a photograph of yours?
12 A. I am not 100 per cent sure. I do not
13 remember whether I took that picture the very evening,
14 whether I took it upon my return a week later or
15 whether somebody took the picture, I cannot really be
16 -- I am not sure.
17 Q. Can we have EP35.11; the photograph we were
18 looking at a moment ago appears here at EP35.11. If we
19 go to EP35.11.001, on the back of it, on the back of
20 the original somebody has written the words:
21 "Photograph showing bullet damage to bedroom
22 window of number 57 Glenfada Park", and has put the
23 stamp "William V I cannot read it photographer" at an
24 address in Pennyburn.
25 I wonder whether you may be mistaken about
1 EP35.1?
2 A. I may be mistaken.
3 Q. May we come, then, please, to paragraph 84 at
4 M34.66: we have now reached a stage in your statement
5 when you have come out of the flat and have reached the
6 entrance to block 1 and some people in front of the
7 entrance told you they had heard someone on the radio
8 mention a photographer taking pictures from the
9 Rossville Flats.
10 Did you understand who had managed to
11 intercept that message on the radio?
12 A. The person who told me that, I do not know
13 who he was, I did not know -- I was not acquainted with
14 this person, but he told me that it was general
15 practice in the Bogside in the area, to listen to radio
16 communication, Army radio communications, so they
17 listened to this and heard that there was a
18 photographer being -- signalled to the Army, which is
19 I think why I was shot at, because possibly
20 photographers were not welcome.
21 Q. May we look, please, to paragraph 86: you
22 describe there reaching the corner of the Lecky Road
23 and Westland Street, and seeing five or six people whom
24 you recognised as being community leaders and senior
25 people in the district whom you knew, who were young
1 men between the ages of 20 and 25.
2 You describe in paragraph 87 how you think
3 one of them was the son of Barney McFadden; did you
4 know the names of the others at the time?
5 A. I might have known the names of one or two.
6 I was acquainted with a lot of people, especially young
7 people because they were the ones at Aggro Corner in
8 the afternoons and I would go and take pictures of them
9 and make reports about them. But I certainly do not
10 remember the names now. I certainly had forgotten them
11 a few -- a couple of years later.
12 Q. In any event, you describe them as "community
13 leaders", as "people in charge of the no-go area" and
14 you say "they told people what they should and should
15 not do"?
16 A. I mean these were young people who would take
17 care of needs in the area, whether it was a matter of
18 reinforcing a barricade, whether it was a matter of
19 taking on injured or ill person to hospital, whether it
20 was a matter of calling a public meeting or putting up
21 posters. These would be the people doing these things,
22 so ...
23 Q. You had seen them doing these things, had
24 you?
25 A. Yes, yes, well, I stayed there for a long
1 time and I know that they were the ones that one would
2 turn to for these problems.
3 Q. I think, if we go over the page to the top of
4 M34.67, you say, after a reference to knowing that they
5 were in charge of the Derry area and may have been
6 connected to the Provos and certainly hated the
7 Stickies; is that right?
8 A. Yes, maybe. I mean, as a journalist it would
9 have been the end for my profession if I had asked them
10 "Are you a Provo?", "Do you belong to the IRA?";
11 I could only suppose, I could only try and understand
12 rumours and get my own ideas. But I would never ask
13 them, because it would have been the most embarrassing
14 and wrong thing to do, as it was considered an outlawed
15 organisation.
16 Q. I follow that, but did you in fact think that
17 they were Provos?
18 A. I might have thought that they might have
19 been.
20 Q. I wonder if it goes a little further than
21 that: could we have on the screen L106? This is an
22 article in the Northern Independent, if I have the name
23 right, on Tuesday, 1st February 1972. There is a
24 column in it headed "Proof of Derry Atrocity -- claims
25 Italian", what it records is this: firstly, it records
1 that you were in the Bogside with your wife and took
2 some most horrifying pictures and that at one point you
3 had to seek shelter behind the flats where you found
4 four bodies lying on the ground:
5 "'They could not have been snipers as they
6 could not have shot at anybody from where they were',
7 Mr Grimaldi said."
8 The next paragraph reads:
9 "Before the march started, he met many of the
10 leading members of the Provisional IRA and they told
11 him that they would not be taking part as they did not
12 want to offer any provocation to the troops."
13 There is what appears in direct quotation
14 marks:
15 "'When it was over I went back and the
16 leadership of the Provisional IRA in Derry were still
17 together away back in the Brandywell', he said. 'They
18 were asking me what had happened and did not know the
19 details at all.'"
20 Is that what you told the press?
21 A. Anybody in those days, having gone through
22 the experience of those days would consider me totally
23 mad if I, as a journalist living in Northern Ireland,
24 staying in Northern Ireland, coming to Northern
25 Ireland, depending on sources in Northern Ireland,
1 depending on the trust and confidence of people in
2 Northern Ireland, if I had said such a thing myself,
3 I would have been out, my professional capabilities
4 would have been finished.
5 So this is something that you can ask the
6 reporter who wrote this thing and put quotation marks
7 around these words, why he did it, but I could not have
8 possibly spoken of Provisional IRA leadership, of
9 anything to do with the IRA, that I was in the know of.
10 Furthermore, had I stated such an
11 acquaintance, such a close relationship with the IRA,
12 I would have been very unsafe indeed in Northern
13 Ireland, what with the British Army and the RUC being
14 pretty tough on people that were considered in
15 association, whether foreign or national.
16 Q. Mr Grimaldi, I quite follow that naming
17 somebody would have put you in a very difficult
18 situation, but the press did in fact have contacts with
19 the IRA, did they not, and indeed the IRA had press
20 conferences from time to time, so there was nothing
21 particularly surprising about expressing, in these
22 general terms, what the Provisional IRA leadership
23 said?
24 A. One could collect my articles on the Irish
25 Question throughout the years from '69 to today and you
1 would find only one time, with my signature under the
2 article, where I mention I saw, met, spoke to IRA
3 people, and that was chief of staff of those days,
4 McSiofine(?) and the deputy chief of staff, Joey
5 Cahill, in Dublin. But they were official and they
6 were in the Republic and they declared themselves as
7 such.
8 Q. Let us break it down: did you speak, before
9 the march started, to anybody and were told that the
10 Provisional IRA would not be taking part in the march
11 as they did not want to offer any provocation to the
12 troops?
13 A. I do not remember that in the least. I have
14 always been convinced from the beginning, that is what
15 is left very strongly in my memory and my conscience
16 that everybody thought that march was to be peaceful,
17 it was to be a civil rights and nothing had to
18 interfere with it, but nobody ever discussed the matter
19 of security, of intervening or not intervening with me
20 before the march. In fact, I mean, nobody who might
21 have been in the Provisional IRA came to me saying
22 "I am a member of the Provisional IRA and I am telling
23 you we will not interfere with the march", it would
24 have been against their security, politics, anything
25 that has to do with an illegal organisation.
1 Q. Does it follow that -- let me ask you this:
2 the next thing that is attributed to you is that after
3 the march was over the leadership of the Provisional
4 IRA were asking what had happened and did not know the
5 details at all?
6 A. What I might have told this manipulating
7 journalist who wrote this piece is that after, as
8 I state in the statement, that after the end of the
9 shooting in front of the flats, these young people,
10 young people, the young, which I considered leading
11 personalities in the community, came down and asked us
12 all -- I was not alone -- asked the people who were
13 round Rossville Flats what had happened and were
14 clearly not in the know.
15 Q. I think I ought to show you also L110: this
16 is an edition of the Irish Press of, I think,
17 1st February 1972, which has either originated or
18 picked up exactly the same account, with the same
19 quotation marks, if you look for instance at the third
20 column:
21 "'When it was all over I went back and the
22 leadership of the Provisional IRA in Derry were still
23 together'" et cetera, and the reference to meeting many
24 of the leading members of the Provisional IRA before
25 the march.
1 Presumably you did talk to the press fairly
2 extensively in the immediate aftermath of
3 Bloody Sunday, did you?
4 A. I certainly did. I went there that very
5 night in order to be in Dublin in the morning to be
6 able to tell the press what had been performed by the
7 Army in Derry. But I did not mention any leadership of
8 the Provisional IRA, for the same reason that
9 I explained to you before, sir.
10 Q. If we go to paragraph 90 at M34.67, I think
11 you describe your movements in the rest of the day.
12 You entered a house about 100 metres up Westland Street
13 and had an interview with a family which can be heard
14 on the tape, which we have seen.
15 Do you know why you went to that house as
16 opposed to any other house?
17 A. Probably some people told me to go into that
18 house because there was a gathering of people and there
19 was a -- the witness or the friend of a boy who had
20 been killed and they thought it might be interesting
21 for me to tape and interview.
22 Q. Then, as you describe in paragraph 91, you
23 ended up in the house of the McFadden family in
24 Stanley's Walk?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that the Barney McFadden who was a steward
2 on the day?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thanks very much. That is a house you had
5 been to before to find information; what sort of
6 information had you gone to find?
7 A. I also went there to get a cup of tea,
8 because that was a house that was open to anybody, it
9 was a very hospitable house. People used to go there
10 and be offered tea, and even soup on occasions, which
11 was very convenient and nice. Also, as it was an open
12 house, as it was a prominent family, a known family,
13 people would gather there and discuss events; what had
14 happened the day before in Dublin, in Belfast, in the
15 world, and so that was a point where one would go and
16 get the opinion of people in Derry, in the Bogside on
17 events.
18 Q. Did you regard it as a house where you could
19 find information about what the Provos might or might
20 not be doing?
21 A. Yes, about all kinds of information: Provos,
22 no Provos, community leaders, the world.
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, we are actually
24 two minutes away from 12 o'clock, if you would prefer
25 to stop now, we could do so.
1 MR CLARKE: I think I would like to finish,
2 which I think I can do before 12, this particular
3 topic.
4 Can we have on the screen T300, just to show
5 you what I am asking you to look at: you wrote,
6 I think, a pamphlet in Italian: "Irlanda, un Vietnam
7 in Europa"?
8 A. It was a selective work, it was not written
9 only by me, it was written by several people who knew
10 about Ireland. I merely contributed reports directly
11 from here.
12 Q. We have the Italian if you wish to look at
13 it. We have had a translation made into English of the
14 events of Bloody Sunday and there is a passage in it
15 I would like to look at with you.
16 Could we go to T322? Perhaps we may have to
17 adjourn. I am afraid we will have to deal with this
18 over lunch.
19 LORD SAVILLE: I think that probably is
20 a suitable moment, Mr Clarke.
21 A. I have it in front of me anyway.
22 MR CLARKE: You are the only one who does,
23 I am afraid.
24 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Grimaldi, we will stop now
25 for lunch and to give the lady sitting to your right a
1 chance to have a rest. Could you come back here at ten
2 to one, please, and may I ask you not to discuss the
3 evidence that you are giving until you have finished
4 giving it.
5 (12.00 pm)
6 (The luncheon adjournment)
7 (12.55 pm)
8 MR CLARKE: Could we have T322 now on the
9 screen? There is a translation we were looking for
10 before lunch. It deals with events at 5 pm and then in
11 the next paragraph, in translation, what you wrote
12 reads as follows:
13 "For the march, the IRA had withdrawn to the
14 heart of the area. Now that the march is about to
15 arrive, the murderers retreat to their iron and
16 concrete fortresses. At 5.15 pm there is silence at
17 last. Apart from the desperate crying, the cries full
18 of anger of the women who never resign themselves,
19 coming from almost every house in the Bogside. We will
20 never forgive them. We will take revenge for all of
21 them."
22 In the next paragraph you wrote this:
23 "At the IRA headquarters plans for revenge
24 and the continuation of the struggle for victory are
25 being prepared. It is full of people. Youngsters who
1 have never met are arriving to enlist in the IRA. The
2 calm is perfect. The sign of a formidable
3 revolutionary discipline. Contacts with Dublin and
4 other centres are being organised. The retaliation
5 will be tremendous as it always is in the tradition of
6 IRA victories. A way must be found to get us to Dublin
7 in order to get the truth out. The killers are
8 stopping everyone who is leaving the area and anyone
9 carrying rolls of film and magnetic tapes. And anyone
10 carrying rolls of film and magnetic tapes finds that
11 they are confiscated and burned."
12 Which is the IRA headquarters to which you
13 are referring?
14 A. You must understand this is a book that was
15 written in Italy as I was here. I used to send reports
16 back to Rome to the people, to the editors that were in
17 charge of putting this book together and not only did
18 I send reports of my own experience, I also sent
19 cuttings of newspapers, interviews, statements by other
20 people and so on. They all put this together and
21 produced this kind of text. So this is not, apart from
22 them putting this together, this is a book that is not
23 a judicial report, it is a book written in a pamphlet,
24 novel-like style with various elements coming into it
25 and various sources being used. I am not responsible
1 for the editing of that book, I am the one who sent
2 news, cuttings, reports, interviews and documents from
3 other organisations, such as People's Democracy and
4 NICRA and other things like that. They put it
5 altogether and produced this text and I do not think
6 I ever spoke, as previously I stated, of IRA or
7 Provisional headquarters, individuals or leaders or
8 what not. This is something that they produce out of
9 the mass of material that they had got.
10 Q. Who else, other than you, was present on
11 Bloody Sunday and contributed to Irlanda un Vietnam
12 Europa?
13 A. All the people who reported on this observed
14 it.
15 Q. Who?
16 A. I mean newspaper people, reporters,
17 Irish Press, Irish News, Republican News, everyone who
18 wrote about this. All of this material relating to
19 Bloody Sunday, I sent to Italy and they concocted this
20 type of text out of the various sources.
21 Q. This is nonsense, is it not, Mr Grimaldi,
22 this is your account of events on Bloody Sunday?
23 A. No, this -- it is not nonsense, it is exactly
24 what I told you, this is how this book was put
25 together. On occasions they say "we moved out, "we
1 moved in, we crossed the border" and so on and they
2 attached these experiences to my person or to me and
3 Susan, but the whole news of things that are being said
4 here are drawn out of various sources, cuttings,
5 reports, documents produced by various people,
6 journalists, organisations and so on.
7 Q. So, when we see in the immediately following
8 paragraph:
9 "We leave at midnight using country roads and
10 paths"; that is what you did, is it not?
11 A. Indeed, that is where they pick out a
12 personal report, a personal experience that I , in the
13 first person, described.
14 Q. What are you saying, that they have somehow
15 put in the preceding paragraph, which does not come
16 from you at all but from some unknown source?
17 A. They merged various items of various reports
18 and put them together and if somebody in the Irish News
19 or the Republican News said that there were volunteers
20 wanting to apply for the IRA membership, they would put
21 it in this way and not necessarily came from me.
22 Q. I hear what you say. Let us see the
23 immediately preceding paragraph again, it begins with
24 references to what is happening at the IRA headquarters
25 and, about six lines down reads:
1 "A way must be found to get us to Dublin in
2 order to get the truth out"; that is you and Susan
3 North?
4 A. Yes, exactly as I explained earlier. There
5 are bits that refer to my personal experience, there
6 are bits that were put together from sources that were
7 myself and others. The editing of this book was not
8 done by me, I was in Ireland at the time that this book
9 was put together and published.
10 Q. Did you read it before you went out?
11 A. No, when I came back to Ireland -- to Italy,
12 it was already finished and completed.
13 Q. Presumably you read it at some stage?
14 A. I read it after it was published.
15 Q. And I presume you have never disapproved of
16 it in any way?
17 A. There was no point, it was published and it
18 was circulating, there was no point in disapproving
19 it. In any case, I do not have any shortcomings or
20 grievances vis-a-vis this text. If they considered
21 various sources made them believe IRA headquarters were
22 somewhere in the Bogside and people went there, so much
23 the better, probably it was true, there must have been
24 an IRA headquarter if there was an IRA in the Bogside,
25 but I was not aware of any IRA headquarters, I could
1 only suppose, suspect, imagine.
2 Q. Who were the editors of this document?
3 A. I remember the editor in-chief was a man
4 called Greed or Grimes, whose whereabouts I do not
5 know. He was the main person in charge of putting
6 together the book.
7 Q. Anybody else you remember?
8 A. No.
9 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Grimaldi, you wanted to say
10 something?
11 A. Just to clarify how this book came about.
12 You see, when, for instance, it said here, "Youngsters
13 who have never met are arriving to enlist in the IRA".
14 Now, I seem to remember that in the days following
15 Bloody Sunday, various newspapers -- Sundays Times,
16 Irish News, Republican News and so on -- would write
17 about an upsurge of applications of -- for IRA
18 volunteers, given the anger and the rage that the
19 massacre in Derry had produced and this was put in
20 a literary way in this form, "Youngsters who have never
21 met are arriving to enlist in the IRA", rather than
22 putting it in a very report-like way, "There are
23 reports about an increase in IRA membership". This
24 will be put in this way in order to make it more
25 readable, more novel-like, more dramatic.
1 Q. Let us see where we got to. The reference in
2 this pamphlet to being at the IRA headquarters is not
3 something that derives from you, you say; is that
4 right?
5 A. No, I would have never mentioned IRA
6 headquarters because it would have been spying on some
7 organisation, I would not have like to spy on.
8 Q. The references in the newspaper quote that
9 I showed you are some manipulation by a journalist; is
10 that right?
11 A. Mmm.
12 Q. Could we have a look at M34.139? This is
13 Peter Pringle's note of an interview with you and at
14 M34.141, if we could have that on the screen, please,
15 he has written this:
16 "Please note after leaving the flats Grimaldi
17 and his wife made their way down Lecky Street and met
18 up with IRA Provos -- this is credible as I met him at
19 one of their houses"; is that what you told Peter
20 Pringle?
21 A. Certainly not. Peter Pringle is a dishonest
22 journalist and he made up most of the things that he
23 alleges I said.
24 Q. Do you remember where you met Peter Pringle?
25 A. No, I think it was in a house in the Bogside.
1 Q. Was it the McFadden house?
2 A. Possibly, possibly, either McFadden's house
3 or in the house where -- of which the tape records the
4 wailing of the lady and the other people, the previous
5 house.
6 Q. May we come, please, to paragraph 92 at
7 M34.67; perhaps 92 to the end, please. You describe
8 sitting in the McFadden house and watching television
9 and hearing General Ford come on and say that three or
10 four rounds had been shot by the Army. You then
11 describe in paragraph 94 somebody telling you that over
12 the Army radio soldiers had been told to apprehend an
13 Italian photographer and his colleague. That is again
14 somebody had intercepted the Army radio, is it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then may we go to the top of the next
17 page, paragraph 95: you describe how "some of the boys
18 in charge of the no-go area" told you to stay in the
19 house because the soldiers would not go in there.
20 Do you know why they were confident that the
21 soldiers would not go into that house?
22 A. They had not gone into the no-go area for
23 months on end.
24 Q. You were then taken to Dublin in the early
25 hours of the following morning by two cars changing at
1 the border as you did so?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. May we then come, please, to the
4 Widgery Tribunal, about which I only want to ask you a
5 little. We know that at the end of your
6 cross-examination by Mr Gibbens you emptied onto the
7 table a bagful of cartridge cases and bullets.
8 Was this the whole of what you had either
9 picked up yourself or been handed on the day?
10 A. Indeed.
11 Q. Why had you not produced them before?
12 A. To whom? I was never asked to come to the --
13 I had to insist several times through newspapers to be
14 questioned by the Widgery Tribunal. They were very
15 reluctant to hear me and so I did not have a chance.
16 I was staying in Dublin anyway, I did not have the
17 chance to hand them over to anybody; I was never
18 approached by anybody.
19 Let me add, I mean considering, as you seem
20 to be doing, that the statements of journalists working
21 for papers such as Independent, Irish Press or
22 Sunday Times can be -- even in the slightest considered
23 evidence, as the policies of these papers are
24 absolutely well-known, they are out to criminalise the
25 resistance of Republican public opinion to the
1 oppression they are suffering in those days and years
2 an obviously they are biased, whereas I am not biased.
3 I have my feelings, but in my reporting I am not
4 biased, so it is easy and it is obvious and it is
5 logical that they would attribute to somebody who,
6 possibly, being Italian, being far away, could not
7 tackle them as to their honesty, things that they would
8 like to blame on the IRA or produced -- it is part of
9 a campaign, is it not, the whole British press was
10 behaving in that way in those days, shamefully.
11 Q. You say you are not biased; could we have
12 a look at T63: this is the foreword to the book that
13 you wrote entitled "Blood in the Street". What you
14 wrote in February -- can you highlight the second
15 column, the second full paragraph down to the end:
16 "It will be said that this book about the
17 State butchery in Derry is one-sided and partial, that
18 it is emotional. We who have written it and the people
19 about whom it is and the people for whom it is, do not
20 mind and do not care. Our emotions are criticised and
21 feared because they carry us to victory. Our
22 partiality and one-sidedness is indicted because it
23 reflects the part and the side of us, the masses, the
24 people. We are not interested in objectivity,
25 aloofness, that can only derive from indifference or
1 vested complicity with those who have everything to
2 lose."
3 You would have us believe that you were
4 wholly unbiased as a reporter?
5 A. Most certainly, because I mean, if you are
6 going -- if you understand, which I am sure you do, the
7 depths of this statement, I say that this aloofness,
8 objectivity is equivalent to indifference or vested
9 complicity. I do not have indifference, I do not have
10 vested complicity.
11 You see, the world is divided into 15 per
12 cent who owns 85 per cent of the world's riches and the
13 rest are underprivileged and oppressed and this was the
14 lot of the Irish Republican community in those days.
15 So I reported honestly and unbiasedly but I have my
16 feelings, which are on the side of that kind of people.
17 Q. Are you interested in objectivity?
18 A. Yes, certainly, as far as reporting the truth
19 is concerned, yes, which I did on the day.
20 Q. Why did you write that you were not
21 interested in objectivity?
22 A. This is the objectivity, I repeat, that is
23 being described as such by those that live by
24 indifference or vested complicity. It is not the
25 correct idea of objectivity. Objectivity is reporting
1 the truth, not denying feelings.
2 Q. Could we have a look, please, at M34.131?
3 This is the last page of the statement that was taken
4 before you came and gave evidence to Lord Widgery and
5 it was taken on 26th February 1972. If you can take it
6 from me, there is no reference in that statement to
7 your having in your possession anything up to
8 40 bullets or cartridges believed to have been fired on
9 Bloody Sunday; is there any reason for that?
10 A. No, I did not think of it, I was not asked
11 about that and I did not think of it. Why should
12 I have mentioned that I had bullets or cartridges with
13 me? I described the events of the day.
14 Q. If they were not relevant, why did you
15 produce them to Lord Widgery --
16 A. Because they belonged to the British Army,
17 I rendered them to the legitimate owners. I wish the
18 27 rifles that shot that day had been delivered to the
19 Inquiry in this case, Lord Saville's Inquiry, but they
20 have disappeared. My bullets did not disappear, they
21 were handed to the proper owners.
22 Q. Entirely so. They were then examined.
23 Could we have on the screen D500.1? This is
24 something I would like you to have the opportunity of
25 dealing with. The bullets that you produced on
1 6th March in a bag were sent for examination and this
2 is the report that came forward as a result. What was
3 reported was this:
4 "On 6th March 1972, a bag containing 20
5 bullets and 44 cartridge cases was received from the
6 Tribunal.
7 "The 20 bullets have now been examined.
8 These are 20 rifle bullets. 19 are calibre 7.62 NATO
9 ball rounds; the remaining one has not yet been
10 positively identified."
11 I think what follows does not matter, other
12 than the fact that this is the standard -- the grooves
13 show this is standard rifling for the British Army.
14 If you go to the fourth paragraph, what has
15 been recorded there is this:
16 "All 20 bullets are covered with fine
17 abrasions and scratches, consistent with them having
18 been fired into sand."
19 In the next paragraph:
20 "The exposed lead at the base of all the
21 bullets is corroded suggesting that they have been
22 exposed to oxidization for a considerable time.
23 "18 of the bullets have markings consistent
24 with having been gripped in a vice, probably in
25 a deliberate attempt to distort them. Most of the
1 marks are on the point and base."
2 In relation to any of these bullets, had you
3 in fact got hold of bullets that had nothing to do with
4 Bloody Sunday and produced them rather dramatically to
5 support a case against the Army?
6 A. Whether they had anything to do with
7 Bloody Sunday, I do not know, as far as the bullets
8 that were given to me later on were concerned.
9 Certainly the ones that I picked up from the ground,
10 very few ones that I picked up from the ground, they
11 belonged to that event. Whether the others belonged to
12 that event, I do not know, but who is the expert, who
13 appointed that expert; Widgery?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Well...
16 Q. Well what?
17 A. Well, it is very doubtful that Widgery would
18 be giving to an honest expert any commitment, I do not
19 trust Widgery at all the way he went about --
20 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Grimaldi, it is the
21 Chairman speaking. I still do not really understand
22 why you did not tell Mr Heritage about these bullets,
23 because they were important evidence, were they not?
24 A. I do not know whether I met Mr Heritage at
25 all. I do not remember having given this statement.
1 I must have been asked to do something in writing and
2 I did write down the, the lines, probably I did write
3 down the lines that were shown just now. I do not
4 recall having met any Mr Heritage or anybody of a
5 Heritage outfit.
6 MR CLARKE: Do you remember being interviewed
7 by somebody, whatever he was called, who was on the
8 staff of the Widgery Inquiry?
9 A. Sir, I do not remember that.
10 Q. But you made a statement to somebody?
11 A. If that is my statement, I must have made it
12 to somebody, or I might have made it in writing,
13 I might have been asked to submit it in writing.
14 Q. But whichever it was --
15 A. Perhaps, you see, I did not trust from the
16 beginning the Widgery Commission from the way it went
17 about the events and from the outset, because I did not
18 trust an inquiry being appointed by one of the parties
19 to the case and hence I perhaps might not have been
20 sure that I should hand these bullets, this material,
21 to that Inquiry, being not at all confident that it
22 would be dealt with properly.
23 In any case, I gave them over to a judiciary
24 body. I did not hand them over, as happened with the
25 rifles, to the Army, where they disappeared.
1 Q. I wonder if you could help me about
2 photographs: we have, as we have already seen, a set of
3 photographs which are the so-called EP26 photographs,
4 which appear to be the ones that the Widgery Tribunal
5 had. It looks pretty plain as if the Tribunal did not
6 have all your photographs.
7 Do you know how it came about that the
8 Tribunal had some at any rate of your photographs, but
9 not all of them?
10 A. I think I mentioned it during the questioning
11 in the Widgery Tribunal that some of the pictures were
12 still in the hands of the Irish Press or the newspapers
13 in Dublin that I gave them to for publication, so I was
14 never asked to hand them over. I think they were
15 collected from the press and not all of them were given
16 and then I suggested to get the other ones as well.
17 Q. You did not yourself hand over any of your
18 photographs to the Tribunal, is that what you are
19 saying?
20 A. I do not really remember.
21 Q. Can I see whether this jogs your memory: may
22 we have M34.146? This is in the course of your being
23 asked questions by Mr Stocker on behalf of the Tribunal
24 and there is a passage at C where he says:
25 "We have only just today received the
1 photographs that you made. May I hand them to you and
2 will you produce the photograph to which you are
3 referring?
4 "Answer: Yes. Which photograph do you
5 want?"
6 It looks from that as if from whatever source
7 the photographs only came forward on the morning you
8 gave evidence.
9 Looking at that, does that bring back any
10 recollection of how they came to be before the
11 Tribunal?
12 A. I am afraid not.
13 Q. Could we then, please, have a look at
14 M34.135: this is a passage from a book entitled
15 "Massacre at Derry". It describes how, on Monday
16 31st January, you gave an interview to Radio Iran and
17 the contents of the interview are quoted. We have
18 subsequently obtained -- I can show it to you if you
19 like -- a transcript of that interview, which appears
20 to indicate the accuracy of what is recorded in this
21 summary. I want to ask you about some passages in it.
22 You appear to have said this:
23 "'There had not been one shot fired at them.
24 There had not been one nail bomb thrown at them. They
25 just jumped out and, with unbelievable murderous fury,
1 shot into the fleeing crowd'."
2 Do you remember saying that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You then are recorded as saying this, if we
5 can go to the last paragraph:
6 "He was asked in view of the fact that the
7 Army claim that they had been shooting at snipers on
8 top of the flats, whether he had seen any dead and
9 wounded other than in the streets.
10 "He went on, 'Let me tell you what I saw.
11 Now, they were only in the street and in the squares.
12 I saw a man and his son crossing the street, trying to
13 get to safety, with their hands on their heads. They
14 were shot dead. The man got shot dead. The son,
15 I think, was dying.'"
16 Did you actually see any of that?
17 A. Um, Mr Clarke, at 6 o'clock in the afternoon,
18 General Ford appeared on TV and said that three or four
19 rounds had been fired into this community of 20,000
20 people that had heard dozens and dozens of shots and
21 seen dozens and dozens of people being shot dead.
22 I was there, I experienced the whole drama, and it was
23 a drama, as I had never been through before. I was
24 shot at; I was shocked; I was shot at several times;
25 I was shot, I was indignant, I was out of my mind with
1 anger and emotion.
2 I went into a house; I had to stay there,
3 being afraid that the Army would come in and confiscate
4 my stuff or if I tried to cross, shoot at me as they
5 had done before.
6 I was in turmoil and I crossed by night over
7 the border. I was taken to Dublin. I had a sleepless
8 night and with all this impression in mind I get to
9 radio -- Irish radio and I am asked about what is
10 happening. What I provided was a very strong,
11 emotional, but precise account.
12 Whether the individual thing is absolutely
13 correct, probably not, but these were the
14 circumstances. I not sitting in a chair in an office
15 of a general or of a colonel saying lies; I was coming
16 there with my, with my mind and character and heart in
17 turmoil and I produced this thing.
18 It was also a matter of letting the people of
19 Derry that were not able to speak because nobody would
20 listen to them; I was a foreign observer; I was a
21 journalist. I somehow earned some more respect and
22 I went to Dublin and I was listened to. I also spoke
23 on behalf of them. When I spoke about the father and
24 the son crossing, I probably got mixed up between the
25 son that died and the father who was wounded, so I say
1 the son was wounded and the father was shot dead. This
2 was reported to me and I spoke on behalf of the people
3 who reported this to me because I believed these people
4 and I, I found later on that these people were honest.
5 If I got mixed up between one and the other
6 thing, I do not think it is very relevant at all.
7 Q. You think that maybe mixing up Alexander Nash
8 and his son, is it?
9 A. I suppose that would be it, yes, because
10 those were -- that was the case of a man and a son.
11 Q. "I saw a young fellow who had been wounded,
12 crouching against the wall. He was shouting 'do not
13 shoot, do not shoot'. A Paratrooper approached and
14 shot him from about one yard."
15 Did you see anything of that kind?
16 A. Did this not happen to Jim Wray, and this was
17 reported as such to me by Jim Wray. As an Italian
18 journalist saying it straight as a direct statement, it
19 would probably be more effective than saying that
20 somebody in the Bogside had told me that a young fellow
21 had been wounded crouching against the wall, was shot
22 dead from about a yard. But this was what happened,
23 this was what I was told and this was what I produced.
24 Q. But the expression that you saw that is just
25 untrue?
1 A. It refers to what everybody saw in any case.
2 Q. You did not see it, did you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Then the next item:
5 "I saw a young boy of 15 protecting his
6 girlfriend against the wall and then proceeding to try
7 and rescue her by going out with a handkerchief and
8 with the other hand on his hat. A Paratrooper
9 approached, shot him from about one yard into the
10 stomach, and shot the girl into the arm."
11 A. Yes, this is in fact the incident that
12 happened in front of block 2 as I tried to go through
13 the passage, through the alleyway, and I already
14 mentioned that in my statement that we went through
15 before. When I have this line of people coming towards
16 the passageway and I saw this Paratrooper from a very
17 close distance -- one yard is an exaggeration obviously
18 -- from a close distance, I could not measure it then,
19 in that turmoil -- please keep the psychological and
20 external circumstances in mind -- saw him aiming at
21 these two people and shooting. They obvious were not
22 hit or if they were hit, I do not know, but this was
23 the impression I got before I was pushed through the
24 passageway into -- to the back of --
25 Q. You did not see a Paratrooper shoot somebody
1 in the stomach, did you?
2 A. I saw him aiming at this boy and at this girl
3 and I saw this boy and this girl, as I said in my
4 statement, the boy crouching, the girl touching her
5 arm, and then I did not see any more.
6 Q. You just embroidered the story, did you?
7 A. You can call it "embroidered". I do not say
8 that they were hit; I do not say they were dead or they
9 were wounded. He shot at them. He might have shot
10 blanks, I do not know.
11 Q. You cannot seriously have been intending to
12 suggest to the world that the Paratrooper --
13 A. Shoot blanks.
14 Q. Shot blanks?
15 A. Yes, certainly not.
16 Q. Even if it was not about one yard, at the
17 time when you were in the southeast corner of the car
18 park between blocks 2 and 3, how far away was the
19 nearest Paratrooper?
20 A. Now I would say -- I mean it is very
21 difficult to say after 30 years, but I would say that
22 the distance was about three or four times the length
23 of a body, perhaps five, six yards. They were very
24 close.
25 Q. Let us have a look on the screen at P205,
1 please: the wall behind which people were is that wall
2 there (indicating) where are you saying you saw a
3 Paratrooper at this stage?
4 A. There, where the arrow is, a little bit
5 further up, closer to the building.
6 Q. What, between the wall and block 2?
7 A. I think the people, as far as I can
8 recollect, the moving of the people -- I do not think
9 the arrow is in the right position, the arrow should be
10 further up, the arrow should be close to the
11 passageway. I think the low wall is very close to the
12 building and not where the arrow is now.
13 Q. Are you saying that you saw a Paratrooper in
14 the space --
15 A. There.
16 Q. What, right up close --
17 A. I think that was the low wall behind which
18 the people crouched and moved to the passageway.
19 Q. I am trying to find from you where you say
20 you saw the Paratrooper?
21 A. Here, more or less where the blue arrow is,
22 at the top of the blue arrow.
23 Q. Take out the mauve and the red arrow, and can
24 we preserve the blue arrow as M34.173.
25 Could we, please, go to T116:
1 This is a section from the book or pamphlet
2 "Blood in the Street" and it appears to be an
3 interview on tape of what is described simply as "a
4 boy".
5 At T127 there is an interview that took place
6 in the hospital; do you still have the tape of those
7 interviews?
8 A. I must have the tape, yes, in Rome. I was
9 not asked to produce it.
10 Q. If we asked you now, could you provide us
11 with a copy of it?
12 A. Yes, I think so.
13 Q. May we then have a look at T321: this is
14 part of the English translation of the book about an
15 European Vietnam. The passage I am looking at is
16 dealing with events after 4.15 and in translation it
17 reads as follows:
18 "The professionals of massacre jump out of
19 the tanks in their ridiculous martial uniforms and
20 immediately start shooting in every direction, always
21 and only at the people who are shouting and fleeing.
22 One commander of the hyenas shouts '30 is the limit'.
23 30 to be hit, they manage almost to perfection: 13
24 deaths, 16 injured."
25 Is that simply an embroidering of a story or
1 is it anything that you actually heard?
2 A. No, no, this was reported to me by a few
3 people who said they listened to an officer saying "30
4 is the limit".
5 Q. It is something somebody told you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could we come on, please, to T326: this is
8 a translation of a section of the book, which is headed
9 "How did the IRA come into being?", and has a lot of
10 detail about IRA history and activities.
11 Are you the author of this section?
12 A. Um, I am not sure, but I certainly
13 contributed to it with knowledge that I gathered in
14 this country from the press of this country, especially
15 from the British press and especially from the
16 Sunday Times. Further information was given --
17 I picked up from Republican media, Republican press and
18 interviews with people in the know.
19 Q. When you say "interviews with people in the
20 know", you presumably mean with people who were in the
21 IRA and therefore in the know?
22 A. No, it was sufficient to talk to
23 Bernadette Devlin, for instance.
24 Q. The article goes on to have a considerable
25 amount of detail about the arrangements of the IRA,
1 including, if we look at T329, the number of people in
2 the IRA; the arrangements in relation to reserves; the
3 organisation of the IRA, down to the tiniest detail;
4 the fact that it is not tolerated for any regular
5 fighter to be stopped during a demonstration.
6 Over the page at T330, the reference to the
7 fact that "the Jewish campaign of 1945 is the technical
8 model for the IRA struggle"; the difference between
9 regulars and reserves and over the page at 331, an
10 expression of view that there are very few people from
11 the Northern Irish proletariat who are not, in one way
12 or another, involved in work in favour of the IRA, down
13 to a description of calculations that show that in
14 autumn 1971 the ratio of women to men in the military
15 ranks of the IRA was 4:10.
16 Detailed information of this kind was surely
17 derived, not only from public sources, but from
18 discussions with people who were able of their
19 knowledge of the IRA to tell you how it worked?
20 A. By all means, that is a professional duty for
21 a reporter that tries to get into the core of the
22 matter.
23 In any case, I was not the only investigative
24 reporter in those days. If you -- if suddenly the
25 Inquiry has a possibility of looking into archives,
1 media archives, press archives in this country, and you
2 will find that hundreds of publications in those days
3 went round by scholars in the States, in Britain,
4 around the world, describing exactly the workings. To
5 a great extent taken from the previous experience of
6 the '56 campaign of the IRA. More or less the
7 structure was the same.
8 Q. You have seen in the Peter Pringle paper a
9 reference to him meeting you in a house in the Bogside
10 frequented by the Provos, and he has added the comment
11 "and he was obviously well in with them"?
12 A. Mr Clarke, we have dealt with that before,
13 have we not?
14 Q. Yes, was that accurate?
15 A. I was well in with the people in McFadden's,
16 I do not know whether I was well in with the
17 Provisional IRA, because I did not know whether they
18 belonged to the Provisional IRA.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 Questioned by MR TOPOLSKI
21 MR TOPOLSKI: Mr Grimaldi, across the room,
22 my name is Michael Topolski and I represent the family
23 of Patrick Doherty. Can I ask you a few questions,
24 please, starting at the point when you pass through the
25 gap between blocks 2 and 3?
1 You remember giving evidence about that this
2 morning and talking about the strike of bullet on the
3 vertical support. Mr Clarke showed you a photograph.
4 May I ask you about other strikes of bullets
5 into that area and show you an image we have had
6 preserved at AD91.9, please. This arises, Mr Grimaldi,
7 from the evidence of a witness called Mr Doherty who
8 gave evidence here on the 82nd day of this Tribunal.
9 That blue arrow indicates where he recollects a strike
10 of a bullet or maybe more than one. I do not say
11 necessarily, of course, the same time as you went
12 through, but ignoring who else is in that photograph,
13 car, masked men, et cetera, do you recollect now any
14 strikes of any bullets against that retaining wall?
15 A. Not specifically, sir, but I certainly
16 remember that bullets were flying at that moment in
17 time, they were buzzing around like flies in the summer
18 and they were hitting things all over the place and
19 I particularly noticed the ones that hit the pillar
20 because the shower of splinters came down on me and
21 people said "that was a close one" or something to the
22 effect, but certainly it is very likely that things --
23 that walls all around were hit because shooting were
24 going on in that direction.
25 Q. You recollect the importance of that wall in
1 two respects: firstly, it is the one upon which are
2 written the words "join your local IRA unit" and of
3 course the famous photographs of Patrick Doherty
4 crawling along in front of it.
5 I ask you, Mr Grimaldi, in case you are not
6 clear, because the issue arises whether Mr Doherty may
7 have been hit at that point. I will come back to
8 that. Let me finish this part of your journey.
9 Can I show you another photograph at P298:
10 what I am about to show you is the other side of this
11 alleyway.
12 The top left, if we could have that
13 highlighted and enlarged, Mr Grimaldi. Mr Grimaldi, do
14 you see where we are now? A photographer has come to
15 the front of block 2 and is photographing back into the
16 alleyway out of which you emerged?
17 A. (Witness nodding).
18 Q. The next photograph I want to show you is one
19 you have seen already, but I want to ask you a
20 different question about it: P318, please. This is as
21 you look to your right. Mr Grimaldi, you have been
22 shown this this morning. Could this be the first
23 photograph you took on emerging through that gap?
24 A. I suppose so, yes.
25 Q. In the light of that answer, I will not take
1 you through a whole series of other photographs. The
2 prone body we see, if that is what it is, to the left
3 is plainly not Patrick Doherty.
4 Do you have now, as I show you that for the
5 second time today, any recollection of that person
6 there?
7 A. There were people, there were persons that
8 were lying on the ground pretending to be dead in order
9 to avoid the bullets that were being shot, so this
10 might be one of the persons that was lying down
11 pretending to be dead. There are other pictures that
12 show persons that are alive and lie down.
13 Q. Yes, indeed, there are many examples of
14 that. It leads me to the next question, in the light
15 of that answer. The number of people in this area we
16 are looking at here, immediately upon you emerging
17 through that gap, may I tell you what Susan North told
18 us yesterday: her words were, and I quote "very, very
19 few". I do not say that to put any thoughts into your
20 head, Mr Grimaldi. It is your independent recollection
21 we want, please.
22 What do you say as to the number of people in
23 this area at the point of your emerging into it?
24 A. Very, very few indeed, as the picture shows,
25 but then I found that several people, quite a lot of
1 people were behind the corner at the end of this
2 picture, at the end of that wall.
3 Q. What about a group of people hiding in
4 a different place, the alleyway behind Joseph Place; do
5 you know where I am talking about?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you see any people there?
8 A. I do not remember.
9 Q. Can you help the Tribunal as to where
10 Patrick Walsh may have crawled from?
11 A. From that area.
12 Q. From that area?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I want to ask you just two questions about
15 the act of photography, as it were. Can I show you
16 your photograph EP26.17, which is annexed to your
17 statement, a famous photograph, Mr Grimaldi; yours,
18 yes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I now want to show you the contact sheet of
21 Gilles Peress. What I am going to suggest is -- and
22 I make the suggestion for your consideration -- that he
23 must have been standing extremely close to you at about
24 this time.
25 Could we have M65.28 on the screen, please,
1 and could we have the bottom row isolated and perhaps
2 enlarged? Remembering the photograph I have just shown
3 you and looking at the fourth and fifth exposure there,
4 the angle is terribly similar, may I tentatively
5 suggest, Mr Grimaldi: do you recollect Mr Peress or a
6 photographer being at your elbow?
7 A. No, not at that moment in time. I remember
8 he was around on various occasions close to me, we
9 exchanged views and remarks, but whether he was close
10 to me at that moment in time, I do not remember.
11 Q. Did you know Gilles Peress?
12 A. I met him -- I knew him before, yes, I met
13 him on previous occasions in Derry.
14 Q. And you recollect dealings with him, as it
15 were, on the day itself?
16 A. Yes, yes, definitely, several times.
17 Q. Again, I hope keeping this in a reasonably
18 sensible order, can we now consider the question of
19 shooting into that area where the body of
20 Patrick Doherty was to be found? You told us this
21 morning that you were not aware of soldiers at
22 Glenfada Park North.
23 Could I invite you, please, Mr Grimaldi, to
24 reconsider that, not that I am suggesting you are not
25 telling us the truth about it, but just reconsider the
1 recollection of it: do you have any recollection now of
2 looking in that direction? You must have done, because
3 in that direction is the body of Barney McGuigan?
4 A. I looked in that direction and looked at
5 Barney McGuigan, but also looked at the rubble
6 barricade with the bodies lying at it and this man Nash
7 crossing.
8 Q. What about beyond the rubble barricade?
9 A. Beyond the rubble barricade, I did not look,
10 I did not pay any attention, and if I said that the
11 Army was not there, I mean that the Saracen that later
12 on was there was not there at that moment in time, it
13 came later. But whether there were Army snipers or
14 soldiers in Glenfada Park, I would not really be able
15 to say.
16 Q. What about a group of people who were
17 subsequently to be arrested at the gable end of
18 Glenfada Park; did you see a group hiding there?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Sheltering there?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I want to return to the man --
23 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Topolski, that first
24 photograph which Mr Grimaldi thought may well have been
25 the first one he saw, that does not give us a view of
1 that gable wall, does it, behind the body of
2 Barney McGuigan, I do not think it does, no?
3 MR TOPOLSKI: It would involve stepping out
4 into the pathway.
5 Mr Grimaldi, I want to return to
6 paragraph 56, please, of your statement to this
7 Tribunal. Could we have M34.61? I want to be
8 absolutely clear what you are saying here.
9 Paragraph 56: this is describing,
10 Mr Grimaldi, the man crawling?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. "I saw him jerk but third line from the
13 bottom he carried on crawling towards the passageway.
14 I had not seen that person before I draw these words
15 to your attention, as it were, underline them nor did
16 I see him again."
17 In the light of the fact you saw
18 Patrick Doherty once you had cleared the gap, putting
19 those two bits of evidence you have given together,
20 Mr Grimaldi, I tentatively suggest that paragraph 56
21 means that is not Patrick Doherty you are describing?
22 A. I cannot be sure of that. In fact for a long
23 time I was thinking that the man crawling -- that I saw
24 crawling away from the corner along the wall might have
25 been Patrick Doherty whom I then saw dead, but I did
1 not connect -- when I saw him dead on the other side of
2 the buildings of the flats, I did not link him up with
3 the man that I saw crawling. It can be -- I mean to me
4 it is on open question whether it is this man who was
5 crawling was Doherty or whether he was not. Several
6 person made their way out of the corner to the
7 passageway.
8 Q. Let me stop you there: is it an open question
9 in your mind that the man crawling along that retaining
10 wall was hit by a bullet or do you believe him to have
11 been struck, whoever he was?
12 A. It is an open question as well.
13 Q. That is open?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Gilles Peress to this Inquiry says he does
16 not believe Patrick Doherty was hit at that point.
17 I do not need to trouble you with any more detail than
18 that reminder of his evidence.
19 Can I remind you of what you said to
20 Lord Widgery, and I have heard what you have said about
21 Widgery, we all have loud and clear, but I want to
22 remind you of something you said on your oath to him at
23 M34.148 on this topic. The bottom paragraph at F. You
24 are being questioned by Mr Stocker:
25 "Question: To complete your journey would
1 you tell my Lord, when you had done your photographing
2 of Margaret Deery and Michael Bridge, where you went
3 then?
4 "Answer: I walked up to the top of
5 Chamberlain Street. I went to this corner where a
6 huddle of people were terrorised ... do you see the
7 sentence. A few people were crawling away and from
8 what my friend Gilles Peress told me, this is where
9 Doherty might have been shot, and I decided we ought to
10 get out of here."
11 Did Gilles Peress tell you in the
12 Rossville Flats car park that that man Doherty was
13 shot?
14 A. No, because he would not know the name of the
15 man Doherty, he could not say "Doherty was shot there
16 and then". He might have told me later that perhaps
17 the man who died, who was dead on the other side of the
18 buildings, might have been the man he saw crawling, in
19 the photograph crawling, but this is very much to --
20 what you have to stress here in my opinion is "might
21 have been".
22 Q. Again, I simply show you that to complete the
23 picture on this topic?
24 A. It is a speculation.
25 Q. I move on and finally deal with this: the man
1 that crawls along that retaining wall, if you were
2 describing Patrick Doherty had a mask on his face, a
3 handkerchief?
4 A. A handkerchief.
5 Q. When you first see the prone dying, if not
6 dead, body of Patrick Doherty the other side of the
7 gap, does he still have a handkerchief on his face?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The handkerchief you refer to in paragraph 68
10 of your statement to this Inquiry, it is the same
11 paragraph that deals with the gathering together of
12 bullets, how close was that to the body of
13 Patrick Doherty, do you recall?
14 A. The collecting of the bullets?
15 Q. No, the handkerchief?
16 A. When I picked up the handkerchief, yes.
17 I think it was halfway between the arcade, the shop
18 arcade, the shops arcade and the body of Doherty. So
19 how distance was the body of Doherty from the arcade,
20 from the shop front; perhaps 8 yards, 10 yards. I must
21 have been halfway between the shops and the body of
22 Doherty.
23 Q. You could perhaps speak to this --
24 A. May I ask something, sir? I think the reason
25 I went out to pick up a handkerchief, I thought of this
1 only a short time ago, there was a moment when I had
2 crossed over and I had lost sight of Susan North, that
3 I started worrying about her and then I turned round.
4 I was already, I think, near McGuigan's body and I saw
5 her coming down in the middle of the square behind
6 Rossville Flats, with a handkerchief in her hand,
7 waving the handkerchief, thinking that this might
8 protect her from being shot at and I think that
9 handkerchief might have dropped. I shouted at her very
10 strongly to get out of the way and get under the arcade
11 close to the shops for cover, and I think she might
12 have dropped that handkerchief and this might have been
13 the reason why I went to go and pick it up because it
14 was her handkerchief. I think this is quite feasible.
15 Q. That is not something you have said before,
16 I do not think, Mr Grimaldi?
17 A. No, no.
18 Q. It is a recollection that has come back to
19 you as you sit there now?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It looks like, to complete the point, and
22 obviously the relevance of it is when he was shot
23 whether he had the handkerchief over his face qua
24 mask.
25 May I show you one other photograph: P721,
1 please. This is Patrick Doherty being attended by
2 Patrick Walsh and others. It looks like below his
3 chin?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is the handkerchief?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Or whatever it was he was wearing?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It follows, therefore, the one you picked up
10 was not the one he had been wearing?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Lastly this: where, please, in relation to
13 his prone body, how far from it, did you find the first
14 of the bullets you say you found that day?
15 A. I think I found them on -- more or less where
16 I bent down to pick up the handkerchief.
17 Q. So some distance from you?
18 A. Halfway between him and the shops.
19 Q. Halfway between him and the shops?
20 A. Yes. If I --
21 Q. Let me show you a photograph of those shops
22 where it may help you. Would you bear with me for a
23 moment? (Pause). We could try P318, the one you have
24 looked at already. The canopy starts at the shops,
25 does it not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you show us there where the bullets were,
3 the three that you first picked up; if I give you
4 control, you can point to the screen?
5 A. I think it is more or less here, it is very
6 hard to say exactly, I have never been asked to
7 concentrate my memory on that. I do this for the first
8 time now. The exact spot might have been in this area,
9 but it is an area that can be whitened and narrowed,
10 more or less here.
11 Q. How many paces would you say that was, the
12 variety of arrows you have drawn on there, from the
13 exit to the gap between blocks 2 and 3?
14 A. How far, the exit is more or less here,
15 I think.
16 Q. Are you standing in the exit when you take
17 this photograph?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That is a few yards?
20 A. Yes, yes, a few yards, yes.
21 Q. Patrick Doherty's body is to the left of this
22 photograph?
23 A. To the left, yes.
24 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Topolski, sorry to go back
25 to the old subject, I may be wrong, but it does seem to
1 me you can see some of the south gable wall of the
2 eastern side of Glenfada Park North and there is nobody
3 there.
4 MR TOPOLSKI: I did answer you too hastily.
5 Let us look at that, please, Mr Grimaldi. You see the
6 Chairman's point. You see the body of Barney McGuigan?
7 A. Yes.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Ask Mr Grimaldi any question
9 you like, I think we can see for ourselves that if I am
10 right and that is that gable wall, there is nobody
11 there.
12 MR TOPOLSKI: That is the scene you
13 photographed, Mr Grimaldi, is it not?
14 A. That is the scene I photographed, but I mean
15 it does not give the full picture of people who could
16 be on the other side in Glenfada Park. One sees a very
17 restricted, limited section of Glenfada Park --
18 Q. Of course it does not, but the Chairman's
19 proposition cannot be wrong, can it; we simply do not
20 see anyone there?
21 A. We do not see anyone there.
22 LORD SAVILLE: The point, Mr Grimaldi, for
23 your information, we have quite a considerable body of
24 evidence that there were a substantial number of people
25 at that southern gable wall, not round the corner in
1 Glenfada Park, who were there in effect until they were
2 arrested?
3 A. At the corner that one can see in the
4 picture?
5 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Topolski, perhaps you can
6 point out to Mr Grimaldi where we are talking about,
7 because I think you and I know where we are talking
8 about, with an arrow?
9 MR TOPOLSKI: I will ask for Mr Clarke's
10 assistance.
11 MR CLARKE: If we take these arrows, unless
12 my learned friend wants them, off.
13 MR TOPOLSKI: There, Mr Grimaldi. (Marked
14 with a blue arrow).
15 A. That is the corner?
16 Q. That is the corner.
17 A. How can one tell there were no people around
18 there; one just sees a few inches of the corner, people
19 might have been behind that corner or a little bit
20 further down. It is difficult to say there was nobody
21 there.
22 Q. There is nobody there in the photograph, that
23 is the most we can say.
24 A. That is half a yard of wall.
25 Q. Sir, that is as far as I can take it.
1 That is all I ask you, Mr Grimaldi.
2 Questioned by MR COYLE
3 MR COYLE: Mr Grimaldi, my name is Coyle and
4 I appear for the family of Bernard McGuigan. I want to
5 ask you about two matters, if I may. Could I have, to
6 assist the Tribunal, EP26.18; it is one of your own
7 photographs. Could I have control of the screen,
8 please? You have been asked about this photograph most
9 recently by Mr Topolski and two matters I want to ask
10 you in respect of it: you had said to Mr Clarke that
11 you did not see any person in this area to which I have
12 pointed the arrow in Glenfada Park?
13 A. (Witness nodding).
14 Q. When you saw Mr McGuigan emerge and be shot,
15 you were not able to say where from, is that not so?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Before I -- I beg your pardon?
18 A. No, I had an idea because nobody was around,
19 no Army was -- had passed the barricade and I had not
20 seen anybody on the opposite side of the street. There
21 was an impression of myself and the people standing
22 around there, that those bullets came from the walls.
23 Q. I want to move on to that presently, but
24 while I have this photograph there is one issue I want
25 to deal with, if I may, with you: you had said to
1 Mr Topolski that you had picked up bullets and you had
2 -- somewhere in that area is where you found them.
3 Sir, would it be possible to preserve this image,
4 mindful of Ms North's evidence yesterday, about the
5 bullets being found approximate to Mr McGuigan?
6 LORD SAVILLE: Yes, of course.
7 MR COYLE: Could it be preserved as M34.175?
8 There are two other photographs I want to
9 show you on this topic: the first is at P8, please.
10 I wonder if that could be enlarged in the central
11 area. Mr Grimaldi, this is a photograph upon which was
12 marked by a soldier known to this Inquiry and to
13 Lord Widgery's Inquiry as Soldier F. You can perhaps
14 see the commencement of an arrow he has drawn there,
15 which terminates along this wall.
16 You did not see him. Is it your evidence
17 that Mr McGuigan was moving in this direction?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Away from the telephone kiosks?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As Mr McGuigan moved out from the wall
22 towards Mr Doherty?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you see a handkerchief in his hand?
25 A. I do not remember.
1 Q. Did you see anything in his hands in
2 consequence?
3 A. No, no.
4 Q. Assuming that this soldier was correct in
5 positioning himself where he does, when he discharged
6 that round or rounds, in the way that Mr McGuigan
7 moved, did you see him or could he be interpreted from
8 what you saw as doing anything threatening towards the
9 soldier who was at this point here? (Indicating).
10 A. How could he possibly, he was moving towards
11 Doherty and he was looking into that direction and
12 sometimes, on occasions he might have turned his head
13 round because people from the telephone area asked him
14 not to do anything silly, but I do not think he could
15 have done anything threatening to any -- I was not
16 aware of anybody being here, so, and probably had he
17 been threatening towards somebody in this area, I would
18 have followed his gesture into this area and noticed
19 something, but this area I left completely out of my
20 attention, the area in Glenfada Park.
21 Q. The second and last topic I want to ask you
22 about is, in your own photographs, commencing with
23 EP26.12, please, you will see the body of Mr McGuigan
24 obviously there. I wonder could the screen be could be
25 lightened. Could I ask you to focus on this man here
1 and on his scarf? There are a number of other
2 photographs you took then in sequence. I wonder could
3 the next one, EP26.22, be brought up on the screen,
4 please.
5 In this photograph one can see there is no
6 scarf of a university type, a coloured scarf on
7 Mr McGuigan. Could I have EP26.23: one again can see
8 there is no scarf upon Mr McGuigan as you have
9 photographed him.
10 Finally, in this sequence could I have
11 EP26.25, please: here it appears the scarf has been put
12 on Mr McGuigan?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If it could be restored, EP26.21, go back to
15 the initial photograph in this sequence I have shown
16 you. Again, if the man with the hat to the right-hand
17 side by the telephone kiosk, if he could be enlarged,
18 you see the scarf that he is wearing?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The scarf that ended up upon Mr McGuigan, and
21 that one is highlighted to you, do you have any memory
22 of them being similar or different or what is your
23 recollection?
24 A. The scarves?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. The difference between the two scarfs. They
2 look the same to me. I do not have the recollection,
3 although I took the picture, of the scarf being placed
4 on Mr McGuigan's face, but it obviously was because it
5 seems to be the same scarf and this would be a normal
6 gesture would be done to hide a horrifying wound.
7 Q. Mr Grimaldi, thank you very much.
8 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Grimaldi, the Chairman
9 again if you look to your right: can we have P318 on
10 the screen again? You say in your statement that when
11 you got out from the passageway, the first thing you
12 saw, I think you say "I immediately saw a body of a man
13 lying on the ground ahead of me. I now know the man
14 was Patrick Doherty."
15 I know you said to Mr Topolski you thought
16 this might have been the first photograph you took.
17 I wonder if that is right, because you go on in your
18 statement, "I took photographs of the body".
19 In your next paragraph you say:
20 "I then saw a man to my right moving towards
21 the body."
22 I think there is quite a lot of evidence to
23 indicate that the body we can see at the far end of the
24 canopy here is that of Barney McGuigan. So it looks,
25 on the face of it, as though that probably was not the
1 first photograph you took, but a subsequent one.
2 I wonder if you would like to comment on that in view
3 of what I have suggested to you. It is your
4 recollection of course not mine, but it seemed to me
5 that, on the face of your statement, it looked as
6 though you were probably photographing Patrick Doherty,
7 then, according to your recollection you saw
8 Barney McGuigan and then you saw him being shot and
9 this looks like a photograph of Barney McGuigan, of
10 course, after he had been shot?
11 A. This is very reasonable, Mr Chairman, and it
12 might well be so, but there is another possibility,
13 that I saw Doherty first, then I noticed this movement
14 of a person moving towards Doherty out of the
15 sheltering area of the telephone booth and that I was
16 attracted by this movement and his being killed and
17 therefore took this picture first and it might still be
18 the first picture I took, so I had seen Doherty first.
19 This is an open question, Mr Chairman.
20 LORD SAVILLE: I follow that. In other
21 words -- we could have them on the screen: M34.62,
22 paragraph 62. If we go to the next page, you say in
23 your statement there:
24 "I took photographs of the body" and at
25 paragraph 63:
1 "I then saw a man to my right, moving towards
2 the body."
3 I think what you are saying now is that might
4 be the case, but it equally might be the case that you
5 took the photographs after you had seen
6 Barney McGuigan?
7 A. Yes, if you keep in mind that it is 30 years
8 later.
9 LORD SAVILLE: I accept that entirely.
10 Questioned by MR MALLON
11 MR MALLON: Mr Grimaldi, my name is Mallon
12 and I represent the interests of the Nash family before
13 this Tribunal. There are just one or two matters
14 I would like your assistance on with regard to your
15 observations and what happened at the rubble
16 barricade. Could we have M34.146 on the screen,
17 please? This is your Widgery testimony when you were
18 being examined by Mr Stocker. If paragraph B could be
19 highlighted, please.
20 You were here answering a question from
21 Mr Stocker as to what your movements were after you had
22 photographed the bodies of Mr McGuigan and Mr Doherty.
23 At paragraph B you say:
24 "... a girl was going hysterical.
25 I photographed her. I understand she was the one who
1 saw Gilmore dying and then I turned round the corner,
2 I took a couple of photographs of people crossing the
3 barricade and I saw a man proceeding to cross the
4 barricade falling down, what I thought then was falling
5 down; in fact he went down spontaneously and shots were
6 being fired at this stage and then he proceeded and got
7 up again and came round the corner where I photographed
8 him again."
9 Can I ask you, Mr Grimaldi: when you say that
10 shots were being fired at this stage, from what
11 direction do you believe the shots were being fired
12 from?
13 A. I would not know for sure. I have the
14 impression because, I mean, otherwise I would have
15 moved out of the way because if the shots came from the
16 walls, I would have been in the line of firing. So
17 I must have been in -- under the impression that the
18 shots came from the William Street end of
19 Rossville Street.
20 Q. You say that you saw --
21 A. But I cannot be sure.
22 Q. You say you saw the man go down; did you keep
23 this particular individual under observations at all
24 stages until he approached that area where you
25 photographed him at EP26.21, if that could be brought
1 up on the screen, please?
2 A. No. Let us see the picture. In any case,
3 no, I think my attention was distracted by something
4 else after the man had dropped on to the rubble
5 barricade. In fact, I thought at that moment in time
6 that he had been shot dead as he was collapsing near
7 the other dead bodies, so I was pretty sure that he was
8 dying and I moved on to some other event, of which I do
9 not know what it was.
10 Q. The reason I ask you that question,
11 Mr Grimaldi, because the sequence of photographs would
12 tend to suggest that you retreated from the position at
13 the gable end of block 1 and moved some way back
14 towards the verandah area at block 2?
15 A. Yes, yes, that seems.
16 Q. If we could have control of the screen --
17 this is EP26.21 -- one can see the individual to whom
18 Mr Coyle has already made reference, namely the person
19 with the hat; do you see him there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If one could have on the screen, EP26.26, and
22 if that could be lightened. One can see an individual,
23 who is clearly the same individual, who himself has
24 moved to a position at the gable end of block 1 where
25 he can observe the rubble barricade and it would appear
1 that in the sequence of your photographs you also had
2 moved to a position where you could photograph the
3 events on Rossville Street at that particular time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. With that photograph in mind, and if I read
6 -- I will read paragraphs 71 and 72 of your Eversheds
7 statement, that is M34.64. What you say is that:
8 "As I stood at the corner by the southern end
9 of block 1 of the Rossville Flats listening to people
10 and taking photographs, I saw two more bodies on the
11 rubble barricade. They were lying towards the middle
12 of the barricade on the south side, crumpled in
13 a foetal position. All I could see was that they were
14 male. The impression I got from their clothes was that
15 they were young. I cannot remember any more. They
16 were very close together, almost in contact with each
17 other.
18 "There was a Saracen behind the rubble
19 barricade (to the north) and I think there was another
20 on the pavement on the west side of Rossville Street by
21 the rubble barricade."
22 When one looks at this, what you are talking
23 about in that particular paragraph is a scene some
24 short time before this photograph was taken.
25 Can I ask you this, Mr Grimaldi: does the
1 position of the vehicles on the left and right-hand
2 side of Rossville Street in that photograph replicate
3 the position of the vehicles that you observed when you
4 were first at the corner?
5 A. I would say so, yes, sir.
6 Q. You can see that in the photograph there
7 appears to be two vehicles on the left-hand side of the
8 street and what appears to be --
9 A. Mmm.
10 Q. Two vehicles, one parked behind one another
11 on the right-hand side of the street; do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When one contrasts that with your Eversheds
14 statement when you say:
15 "There was a Saracen behind the rubble
16 barricade, and I think there was another on the
17 pavement on the west side of Rossville Street by the
18 rubble barricade", might it be the case that there was
19 a single vehicle on either side of the road at that
20 point in time when you first observed them?
21 A. Could well be. You see, I was first asked
22 this question 30 years after the event, whether there
23 were four or two. I remember two present -- I mean two
24 big elements present. Whether there were four or two,
25 I do not know, but my first memory was that there were
1 two vehicles on either side of the -- and not four.
2 Q. In relation to the vehicles on the right-hand
3 side, that is really just beneath the canopy in the
4 photograph?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The vehicle or vehicles that you first
7 observed there, do you recall whether they were
8 positioned with the front of the vehicle facing towards
9 Free Derry Corner or whether the vehicle was parallel
10 to the barricade?
11 A. No. I seem to remember when I first looked
12 at the barricade very early after having crossed over,
13 that the position was more or less this position.
14 Q. I want to show you a clip of video,
15 Mr Grimaldi, that shows a vehicle, a solitary vehicle
16 on the right-hand side of Rossville Street, at or about
17 the location under the canopy where those two vehicles
18 are positioned. It would appear sequentially to have
19 been some time before this photograph was taken.
20 If I could have video 6 and if that could be
21 brought up at 2.53.
22 (Video played)
23 If one could bring it back. If one plays it
24 along from there.
25 (Video played)
1 One can see here the nose of the vehicle. If
2 one moves it on slightly a number of frames. One can
3 see what appears to be the control Ferret car, parked.
4 If we can have control of the screen, please. But
5 there appears to be a single vehicle at that particular
6 location that would be observable from the position
7 where you were when you first looked at the rubble
8 barricade. If one plays on, please.
9 (Video played)
10 I want to stop there. That is a clearer
11 picture because one sees what appears to be the Ferret
12 car parked by itself --
13 A. On the right-hand side?
14 Q. In the top right-hand corner of the screen.
15 If one plays on, please.
16 (Video played)
17 It is difficult, Mr Grimaldi, because the
18 quality of the video to say whether or not, if there is
19 an individual who can be observed on that particular
20 screen, but there appears to be someone standing, one
21 assumes a soldier, at the front of the command vehicle;
22 do you see that?
23 A. In the middle of the street, yes.
24 Q. Yes, precisely, the middle of the screen.
25 One can see in that particular piece of video footage
1 that the vehicle is parked parallel to the rubble
2 barricade?
3 A. Yes, but is it parked or is it moving?
4 Q. That particular vehicle is parked. If one
5 returns to your photograph, EP26.26, one can see in
6 this particular photograph that a vehicle quite
7 distinct from the last vehicle in the video clip has
8 moved up Rossville Street and effectively now commands
9 a position to the front, one would imagine, of where
10 the Ferret car was parked.
11 Can I ask you: do any of those images, namely
12 your own photographic representation of what you
13 observed or the video clip, does that serve to spark
14 any memory with regard to the position of the vehicle
15 that you first observed when you looked north up
16 Rossville Street?
17 A. Mr Mallon, I had a very short and very swift
18 glance at the rubble barricade because things were
19 happening around me. When I first turned round to the
20 back of the flats, so, um, I really -- my attention was
21 taken by the bodies that were there, dead or alive or
22 hiding, I do not know, and the man crossing and then
23 I immediately reverted my attention to something else,
24 I do not remember what it was, immediately after. So
25 I really did not pay much attention to the vehicles
1 that were behind.
2 I was under the impression that nothing was
3 beyond the rubble barricade at the time that I looked
4 at it and took the picture, but I do not remember what
5 was on the other side of the barricade.
6 I can only presume that when I went up into
7 the flat and took pictures from the window, there were
8 two Saracens standing at the barricade.
9 Q. Clearly, if one returns to EP21.22 --
10 LORD SAVILLE: Before we get away from 26,
11 Mr Mallon, Mr Grimaldi, I cannot see any bodies in this
12 photograph; was this taken a little later on, do you
13 think?
14 A. Yes, this is certainly -- this is not a
15 picture of the rubble barricade as I saw it when
16 I first went round, this is a picture that is later and
17 this is not Nash crossing because otherwise I would
18 have had Nash crossing and Alexander Nash crossing,
19 whereas this is another person. I do not know whether
20 that is a priest or whoever it is, I do not know, but
21 this is a later picture.
22 LORD SAVILLE: It is pretty clear it is a
23 later picture.
24 MR MALLON: If one returns to EP26.21, which
25 is an earlier photograph, one can see a Saracen or
1 military Pig has already passed by the barricade and is
2 in the process of reversing into Glenfada Park North;
3 one can see that. The photographs taken in sequence
4 would suggest EP26.26, to which the Chairman makes
5 reference, was a photograph taken sometime later?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Because the position of the individual in the
8 hat would also confirm that in that he has moved from
9 his position in front of the telephone box to the
10 position on the corner?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If I could have EP26.26 back on the screen,
13 please. Mr Grimaldi, there is some degree of confusion
14 from the very many statements that the Inquiry have
15 regarding the position of the bodies on the barricade
16 after the young men were shot. Looking at that
17 photograph, doing as best you can if you have control
18 of the screen, could you point to that portion of the
19 rubble barricade where you say you observed the two
20 persons lying on the south side crumpled in a foetal
21 position?
22 A. More or less in this area. (Marked by blue
23 arrows - M34.176).
24 Q. If Mr Grimaldi could have cover -- could you
25 mark that with an arrow, Mr Grimaldi, please?
1 A. I am trying to.
2 LORD SAVILLE: Are you happy with that,
3 Mr Grimaldi?
4 MR MALLON: If that image could be saved as
5 M34.176.
6 Finally, Mr Grimaldi, the position where you
7 saw Alexander Nash fall, can you indicate that with a
8 different colour arrow on the photograph, please?
9 A. (Marked by red arrows - M34.176).
10 LORD SAVILLE: The blue cross represents
11 where Mr Grimaldi says he recollects seeing the two
12 bodies and the two red arrows represent the position
13 where you recollect you saw Mr Nash senior fall?
14 A. I must stress that this is approximate, given
15 the distance in time.
16 LORD SAVILLE: I think we all accept that.
17 Can we record that as the next number?
18 MR MALLON: That will be M34.177.
19 LORD SAVILLE: I think 176 will do, will it
20 not?
21 MR MALLON: Thank you very much for your
22 assistance, Mr Grimaldi.
23 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD
24 LORD GIFFORD: My name is Anthony Gifford and
25 I appear for the family of James Wray. One or two
1 questions I am going to ask you have reference to the
2 book "Blood on the Streets".
3 You wrote that with Susan North. When was it
4 that you wrote down the text of "Blood on the Streets"?
5 A. I think within 10 days of Bloody Sunday, more
6 or less.
7 Q. The foreword to the first edition is dated
8 February 1972?
9 A. (Witness nodding).
10 Q. It would have been finished during February
11 1972?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Indeed, the foreword to the second edition
14 says that the first edition was published in March
15 1972?
16 A. It was certainly written in February 1972.
17 Q. And the photographs that were used were the
18 photographs that you had in your possession?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. They seem, but we were testing it by
21 reference to one or two, to be mainly your photographs?
22 A. Indeed.
23 Q. Because, would you have had access to other
24 photographs to put into that book?
25 A. No, I do not think so. In fact, this is why,
1 I think that the book also contains the sequence of the
2 Paratrooper pursuing the boy that falls on the ground,
3 and this is why it was always my belief that this
4 sequence was my sequence because I had not been in
5 touch with any other photographer. Gilles Peress had
6 vanished to Paris to sell his photographs to his
7 agency.
8 Q. Where were you when you were writing the
9 text?
10 A. In Dublin.
11 Q. Before I come to the sequence, can I go to a
12 photograph you were asked about, which is photograph
13 P852? Do you remember the photograph of the two men
14 holding the banner?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If we look now at T112, which is a photograph
17 taken from "Blood in the Streets", do we see the same
18 photograph although once again it has been --
19 A. Turned the other way round.
20 Q. Turned the other way round?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Does that help you to confirm that must be a
23 photograph that you took?
24 A. Yes, I am pretty sure that it was my picture.
25 Q. That photograph shows two men holding a large
1 banner. If we look at another of your photographs,
2 EP26.2, we see the Civil Rights Association banner
3 which, it is very likely to be the same banner, taken
4 by you, being held by people close to the barricade?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would it be right that the sequence of the
7 photographs I have just shown you was that this
8 photograph taken at barricade 14 was taken at some time
9 before the photograph of the two men holding the
10 banner?
11 A. Yes, I would presume so because the time when
12 the area emptied because of gas being fired and the dye
13 and so on, came after the crowding in on to the
14 barricade. So the two isolated fellows holding the
15 banner must have come after this. This would be
16 logical, but I do not really remember, it seems to me
17 logical, but I do not remember whether I took the one
18 before the other.
19 Q. If one can look at another photograph of that
20 same scene of the two men holding the banner but in
21 a different context, could we see P357? Having seen
22 the general scene which is of a lot of people standing
23 around the wasteground and in Rossville Street, can we
24 then, please, enlarge the top right-hand corner and
25 could we pick out, on top of the white building, the
1 two men holding the banner in rather the same position;
2 that certainly helps us to contextualise that picture?
3 LORD SAVILLE: I have lost my bearings
4 slightly, Lord Gifford, the picture is looking --
5 LORD GIFFORD: It is taken, it would seem,
6 from high up, perhaps in the flats, it is looking over
7 the wasteground and --
8 LORD SAVILLE: I get it, it is in fact
9 looking north, yes.
10 LORD GIFFORD: It is looking north towards
11 barrier 12. It would appear, in fact coincidentally
12 the two figures are in much the same attitude as they
13 are in Mr Grimaldi's photograph. Thank you very much.
14 The next point I want to ask you about is the
15 scene that you saw when the Saracens came into the
16 Bogside and you were watching from the edge of the
17 wasteland.
18 You said in your statement, in your question
19 about it, that the third Saracen went quite far down
20 Rossville Street and you used the words "out of view"?
21 A. (Witness nodding).
22 Q. You were questioned as to whether that was
23 right. Can I see how you put it closer to the time in
24 T78 and can we highlight the right-hand upper parts?
25 This is part of "Blood in the Streets"?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Dealing with the entry of the Saracens, you
3 say:
4 "Grey, dark, bulky forms, rapidly growing
5 into more precise contours and shapes, advancing at
6 unbelievable speed, shooting out in all directions, one
7 coming straight at us, another one speeding down
8 Rossville Street towards the flats and the tiny
9 barricade at the end of the flats."
10 That is how you described it writing soon
11 after the event.
12 Can we go to the map that you drew for the
13 benefit of the Inquiry, which is M34.172? You marked
14 the point "F" the point -- is that the point that you
15 last saw the Saracen advance to?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Bearing in mind the account you gave in
18 "Blood on the Streets", it would seem that your
19 recollection, then and now, is clear that that Saracen
20 did advance up to the point around the point "F" that
21 you have marked?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did not stop further back opposite
24 Kells Walk at that point, at least?
25 A. Well, there was the other one that stopped
1 further down, but not as far back as Kells Walk. There
2 might have been a fourth Saracen. I only paid
3 attention to these three that were in front of me, but
4 I think there were more coming up. These were the
5 three, the first ones that came in, but for sure --
6 Q. Certainly there were others?
7 A. There were others that came up later and
8 there might well be some that stopped in front of
9 Kells Walk.
10 Q. You were shown a photograph P188 and perhaps
11 we will look at it again. It was pointed out to you
12 that there were a number of Saracens apparently
13 stationary somewhere opposite the area of Kells Walk.
14 In view of what we have been over, is it your
15 clear recollection that one Saracen at least came down
16 Rossville Street much further than the Saracens that
17 are shown in Rossville Street in that picture?
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. In addition to the two that came --
20 A. In addition to the two, yes.
21 Q. Off the street in another direction?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the point "F" that you had marked on the
24 map, did you see that Saracen stop or did you just --
25 A. No, I did not see it stop. I just have the
1 last recollection of it being there.
2 Q. Moving to the topic that you raised about the
3 photographs which are marked "Coleman Doyle". If we
4 look at T134, although it is not very clear, it is
5 clear enough for us to see that those are three
6 photographs taken from the sequence of four that you
7 were shown earlier and, indeed, it is clear that the
8 middle one is enlarged to a greater magnification than
9 the other two and that would have been done by you for
10 effect, would it?
11 A. It would have been done by the Irish Press
12 laboratory, photographic laboratory.
13 Q. Let me ask you a little more about that: you
14 mentioned the Irish Press, and the Tribunal will be
15 well aware that Mr Coleman Doyle worked for the
16 Irish Press. You knew him, did you?
17 A. I do not remember him.
18 Q. You do not remember him, but you had given a
19 number of your photographs to the Irish Press?
20 A. Indeed.
21 Q. For them to use?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That would have been positives that you had
24 given or contact prints or negatives?
25 A. I gave them the negatives. They developed
1 the prints and they made contacts. They kept the
2 prints and the contacts and gave me back the negatives.
3 Q. And you then were also, therefore, able to
4 use the photographs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In "Blood on the Streets" and you had your
7 own copies?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But it may well be that Mr Coleman Doyle,
10 when he prepared his evidence to Widgery would have had
11 in his possession Irish Press photographs and may have
12 mistakenly thought that he had taken them?
13 A. Yes, that is an option.
14 Q. May I next pass to the scene in the flat in
15 block 1 when shots were fired through the window: can
16 we first try to clear up the sequence which is at
17 EP30.1. I am going to suggest to you that that is a
18 photograph taken in Glenfada Park --
19 LORD SAVILLE: I think Mr Grimaldi rather
20 agreed that was the case, yes, Lord Gifford. That is
21 certainly what I have understood from his evidence. If
22 I have it wrong, Mr Grimaldi, no doubt you will tell
23 me.
24 LORD GIFFORD: Can I just see which is 30.2?
25 That is taken from the inside of the flat where you
1 were, when you were shot at?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And I think 30.3, that in fact, I am going to
4 suggest, is in fact the photograph of the mirrored
5 cupboard inside the Glenfada Park flat and is not one
6 of yours at all?
7 A. Might well be, it seems very new to me.
8 Q. If you turn the photograph around so that the
9 -- in that way and lighten it a little --
10 A. I was not aware that the bullet hit a mirror.
11 Q. Indeed, the evidence will be that what is
12 seen in the top left-hand corner is the keyhole of a
13 cupboard, that in fact is in Glenfada Park.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I will leave that because I do not -- I think
16 it is now fairly clear?
17 A. Furthermore, the shots all came from below,
18 they could not have possibly hit something low in the
19 apartment in Rossville Flats.
20 Q. In fact, if we look, just to get the best
21 picture, at EP34.1. I am now getting confused with the
22 outside window which was shown to you, but I will come
23 back to it, I think, which -- 35.1, I apologise -- that
24 is also a picture from the outside of the flat in which
25 you were?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. From which you took the photographs?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Leaving aside now the photographs, you
5 described to Mr Clarke that you had stepped a yard or
6 so -- a pace away from the window when the first shot
7 came through the window; what if anything were you
8 doing when the next shot came through the window?
9 A. Well, we all plunged on the floor, on the
10 ground and crawled away from the window and away from
11 all windows possibly, and we told the children in the
12 house and the lady in the house to get on their bellies
13 and crawl away into the bathroom where there were no
14 windows.
15 Q. When the later shots were fired after the
16 first shot, was the window still half open?
17 A. I do not know. I think I did close it after
18 having taken the pictures, I have the impression, but
19 I am not sure.
20 Q. Was there any movement in the area of that
21 window while -- at the time that the shots came
22 through?
23 A. After the first shot, I would not have gone
24 near the window at all, nobody would have gone near the
25 window. After the first shot, we just stood there
1 stunned for a second and said "they are shooting at
2 us". That was the time that elapsed between the first
3 and the second shot. The second shot got us all on the
4 floor, crawling away.
5 Q. Was there anything in your equipment that
6 could have been confused for a rifle?
7 A. Certainly not, it was a very short lens and
8 nothing else at all, a tape recorder was a square -- it
9 looked like a brick and we did not show it, I mean it
10 was not exposed to the window. The only thing that
11 appeared at the window was my face and my camera but --
12 that were stuck out of the window and there might have
13 been for a split second behind the window and
14 I withdrew or a split second before -- behind the
15 window before I got out of the window with the camera.
16 Q. Sir, those are my questions, thank you.
17 Questioned by MR GLASGOW
18 MR GLASGOW: Mr Grimaldi, my name is
19 Glasgow. I represent many of the individual soldiers
20 and there are very few matters I would ask you to help
21 the Tribunal with, please.
22 Could I ask you -- if you need to look at
23 your statement please tell me and I will bring it up on
24 the screen, but you may not need it for the questions
25 I have for you. You were asked some questions about
1 the guns that you saw, and I am not concerned at all
2 with what you believe they were called, but just with
3 your answer that they were the ones that could fire
4 single shots or in bursts.
5 Did you hear any bursts of shots from those
6 guns, or did you only hear individual shots?
7 A. It is difficult for me, not being a military
8 expert, to say the exact difference between a burst and
9 a rapid succession of shots.
10 If you intend a burst as something that is
11 being done by an AK47 gun, then I did not hear that
12 kind of burst, but I heard shots that were very close,
13 but very, very close one to the other.
14 Q. Can I bring you to the passage, it is one
15 that you covered in some detail with my learned friend
16 Lord Gifford, but there is one more question you may be
17 able to help with. On this I think it would be fair
18 that you look at what you said in your statement, which
19 we have at M34.57, paragraph 27.
20 Can you help the Tribunal once more with what
21 you believe you saw in the scene that we have been
22 calling, if you refresh your memory from paragraphs 27
23 and 28, particularly paragraph 28. We will look at the
24 photograph in just a moment. So that you know what
25 I am talking about, it is the photograph that
1 Lord Gifford has just discussed with you as to whether
2 it was yours or Coleman Doyle's, particularly your
3 recollection at the time when you gave the statement
4 that you were concentrating on this scene through the
5 lens of your camera. That is what I draw your
6 attention to.
7 Having refreshed your memory of that, could
8 we look at the photograph together, please, which is
9 EP24.2? As we know, a copy of this and the preceding
10 and succeeding photographs do indeed appear in your
11 book. Looking at that photograph again, do you now
12 accept that whether or not you got a copy of it --
13 I make no criticism of that -- do you dispute
14 Mr Doyle's evidence that he took it; do you still
15 believe that you may have taken it?
16 A. Yes, I am not 100 per cent sure, as I said at
17 the beginning, but I always had these pictures with me
18 from the beginning of the entire story. I used them
19 for my very first book which I wrote a couple of weeks
20 and got into print a couple of weeks after
21 Bloody Sunday. So this is why I was convinced, if
22 I was convinced that these were my pictures. I cannot
23 swear on it, because you see the negatives are given to
24 the Irish Press in the first instance the morning after
25 Bloody Sunday. After a sleepless night I gave them the
1 negatives and I say -- I told them "make the best use
2 of it" and so they did, and then the pictures appeared
3 and then they were given back to me and I got these
4 pictures. So I presumed, having not known about any
5 Coleman Doyle in those days, I presumed all these were
6 my pictures.
7 Q. I do not challenge that at all. It may be as
8 simple as this, Mr Grimaldi: some of the photographs
9 Mr Doyle has were taken by you and some that were taken
10 by him may have finished up with you?
11 A. Possibly.
12 Q. That is possible. Bearing in mind your
13 answer about the importance of looking through the
14 lens, I wanted you to know what Mr Doyle had told the
15 Tribunal because his description of this scene on
16 having this photograph drawn to his attention, was that
17 the soldier on the left standing over the man and the
18 soldier on the right, he is talking about in
19 a different context, he then said in answer to my
20 learned friend Mr Clarke, "what was the soldier on the
21 left doing" and his answer was, "he just jumped over
22 the man; he did not fire or anything, you know, I think
23 the man must have tripped"?
24 A. That is what Coleman Doyle said. I do not
25 know this is what the pictures show.
1 Q. We may have learnt to be careful about what
2 pictures appear to show, I wanted you to have the
3 opportunity of commenting on that. If that is the
4 evidence of the man who was looking through the lens at
5 this scene, you think you saw something different?
6 A. I saw somebody stepping on that fallen boy
7 and raising his gun, and it is shown on the picture,
8 pointing the muzzle towards the fallen boy and that is
9 not jumping over the body, that is standing over the
10 body and doing something with the arm or with the
11 rifle.
12 Q. You actually saw the soldier shoot the boy on
13 the ground, if you are right?
14 A. I saw him doing this (indicating). There was
15 a lot of shooting going on, I do not know whether
16 I heard that particular shot, but I certainly saw the
17 earth, and the picture shows it, the earth of the
18 ground shooting up --
19 Q. Before you go on, in fairness to you so you
20 can see what you said at the time, you set out your own
21 recollection in "Blood on the Streets" (we have it at
22 T85). There may be no doubt as to what you were saying
23 at the time, although we hear what you say today.
24 Right-hand column, second paragraph from there:
25 "Another one this is a Paratrooper chasing
1 a boy with a handkerchief on his face, I add we see
2 that in the photograph the boy falls; the Paratrooper
3 steps over him, on him; stops; points the rifle from 10
4 inches into the contorted mass from which an arm
5 raises, to shield, to plead; fires -- the mass jerks,
6 lays still. Another one. Grabbing a small ..."
7 Your account at the time, Mr Grimaldi, was
8 apparently of seeing a Paratrooper shoot that boy from
9 10 inches?
10 A. Well, if you think, if you imagine
11 a Paratrooper follows a boy; the boy falls; the
12 Paratrooper stops and steps on him; raises his gun and
13 you hear "bang" and you see the earth going up into the
14 air, then you have all the reasons to believe that he
15 fired. If you then see that the Paratrooper walks away
16 and the body lies still on the ground, you are
17 justified to believe that he was shot, I think.
18 Q. Could we go, please, next to your page
19 M34.60, the top paragraph 44: just one matter that you
20 did not cover, I think. In relation to the photograph
21 of the gunman, if it be a gunman, there was some
22 question, and Mr Toohey on behalf of the Tribunal asked
23 whether anything was known about the origins of the
24 photograph. I did not know whether you were aware of
25 what Mr Barry of the Sunday Times had actually told
1 this Tribunal, which we ought perhaps to look at, at
2 least in the light of Mr Toohey's question, at M3.5.
3 This is his statement, I hasten to add, not yours and
4 I do not think you would have seen it before,
5 Mr Grimaldi?
6 A. No.
7 Q. But I thought you ought to have the chance of
8 dealing with it at paragraph 20 because what he is
9 telling the Tribunal in his paragraph 20 is:
10 "So far as I recall we found only one
11 sequence of photographs showing an IRA gunman on that
12 day. A pair of pictures showed a man holding a pistol
13 while standing against a gable wall abutting the car
14 park of the Rossville Flats. In the later of the
15 images he appeared to be aiming the pistol round the
16 gable end. These came to light when we noticed
17 photographs were missing from a sequence supplied to us
18 by an Italian photographer named Fulvio Grimaldi."
19 Did you know anything about that?
20 A. No, this is great imagination on the part of
21 who wrote this. I never supplied any sequence over any
22 IRA gunman holding pistols and so on, the only picture
23 I know is the one that we examined this morning, where
24 it takes a lot of imagination to say that that was a
25 man with a gun in the pocket, of all things. I am not
1 aware of any sequence that I ever supplied to the
2 Sunday Times, but I am aware of a lot of trickery on
3 the part of the Sunday Times towards my material and my
4 statements.
5 Q. Does it follow the next sentence is untrue in
6 your evidence as well:
7 "We demanded his contact sheets and
8 identified the missing images."
9 Did the Sunday Times ever ask for your
10 contact sheets?
11 A. They might have asked for my contact sheets,
12 but my contact sheets had gone with the folding up of
13 the newspaper I worked for.
14 Q. Despite what Ms North told the Tribunal
15 yesterday, your belief is that none of your photographs
16 showed a man with a pistol in his hand?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could I, in view of the questions you have
19 been asked about the photographs of Mr McGuigan, ask
20 you to look again at your evidence at paragraph 63,
21 which we have on M34.63? This, again, are the
22 questions particularly in the light of the questions
23 which the Chairman Lord Saville asked you about, the
24 order in which the photographs were taken. To get you
25 back in context, Mr Topolski in the far corner thought
1 the photograph of the body was the first you had taken
2 on-coming round the flat corner.
3 Can I ask you this, Mr Grimaldi: are you sure
4 that you did actually see Mr McGuigan shot, as is in
5 this paragraph, or may it be the case that actually you
6 saw his body?
7 A. No, no, I saw a man being shot; I saw a man
8 turning round, twisting and falling on the ground and
9 I am sure that he was Barry McGuigan because later on
10 I took pictures of him in the position where I saw him
11 falling.
12 Q. I tell you why I ask: we have seen a lot of
13 the video programmes of course; one of them is the
14 Channel 4 series of programmes to which you contributed
15 which, for the note, we have as video 6.
16 Could I show you the passage that we have the
17 transcript of what you actually say, we can see it on
18 the video; it appears at X1.6.42. While it comes up,
19 if it helps you to remember, it is the shot on the
20 television of you talking to Ms North, reconstructing
21 what happened. The top of the page "FG" -- "AT" is
22 Alex Thompson, if you remember, who is the commentator,
23 "FG", it says, it actually says "we have let down",
24 perhaps you will take it from me on listening to the
25 video fairly carefully, we think it says, and it makes
1 sense:
2 "We get down the flats on the other side and
3 come to the back and saw a dead man lying there with
4 his eyes shot out."
5 The account we see you giving with Ms North
6 on the television is of getting behind the flats and
7 seeing the body of a man with his eyes shot out.
8 Do you think that may be right or do you
9 stand by what you have adopted today in paragraph 63?
10 A. I stand by what I say today. I repeat what
11 I said this morning: it was the first time, after 27
12 years, that somebody showed up and asked me about my
13 recollection of what happened 27 years earlier. It was
14 1997, and I had not concentrated on any of these past
15 events for the past 27 years and I had to resort to the
16 pictures that I had and I looked through the pictures
17 and I put them on the table, together with the reporter
18 we went through them and I followed more or less the
19 events of the pictures and, hence, in the summary
20 I told her that I went round the corner and I saw a man
21 with his eyes shot out.
22 This was very superficial, this was the first
23 time I went back to those events after 27 years and
24 then we concentrated, Susan and I, we went through
25 that, we consulted, we remembered, we read our books
1 that we had not read for donkey years and therefore the
2 picture became clearer and clearer.
3 Q. Could I ask you two questions, please, about
4 the time that you spent in the flat on the first floor
5 where ultimately the shots came through the window?
6 The first is when you went into that flat, we have the
7 transcript of Ms North's tape in which you are heard
8 knocking on the door and asking to use the telephone;
9 you remember the incident?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And on the tape you are heard to say, as you
12 go through the door and Ms North tells us that she
13 thinks the words were said as you were walking down the
14 corridor and calling her afterwards, we just hear the
15 words "Martin McGuinness" and then you say "Susan, come
16 in here", calling her to follow you.
17 Do you remember using the name
18 Martin McGuinness, perhaps as part of your introduction
19 --
20 A. Possibly. If that is what the tape says.
21 Q. It is just the words can be heard spoken
22 "Martin McGuinness", and you would have known the
23 name?
24 A. It is my voice says the words?
25 Q. We believe it is.
1 A. With my accent it is not difficult to tell.
2 With my accent it would not be difficult to tell.
3 Q. It is certainly you who says "Susan, come
4 here" and it appears to be part of that. The Tribunal
5 will have to make its own mind up. I can tell you,
6 Mr Grimaldi, we have been told the transcriber of the
7 tape will come and we will all ask questions.
8 A. I must remark that the transcriber of the
9 tape has been doing funny things that had to be
10 corrected and had to be corrected and were rather
11 preposterous. Just to add -- comment to this
12 "Martin McGuinness" mentioning: I would find it very
13 strange that I would mention as an introduction to have
14 the door opened the name of "Martin McGuinness" to a
15 lady, obviously and did not have anything to do
16 whatsoever with community life, with anything
17 organisational, with anything to do with the no-go
18 areas and so on because this was a lady that was
19 completely out of the normal life of the community, she
20 had nothing to do with the community and she was
21 described to me as such, there is a lady, she is
22 somebody special, somebody who is nothing to do with
23 us, but she has a telephone. In those days telephones
24 were very rare.
25 Q. Does your evidence come to this, Mr Grimaldi:
1 while you would have known Martin McGuinness by name --
2 A. I certainly knew Martin McGuinness by name.
3 I knew the whole family by name. I used to have tea
4 with the family and I was a good friend of Geraldine
5 and Peggy McGuinness and her daughter and everybody's.
6 Q. I will not press it. I will leave it for the
7 tape. The last matter is the window itself. It is
8 simply the question of whether you were at the window,
9 or very close to it, when the first shot was fired.
10 Again, we have your evidence. You have told the
11 Tribunal that you believe you walked away from the
12 window?
13 A. I walked a very short distance away from the
14 window. There was no reason to hurry away from the
15 window or to go a long distance away from the windows
16 because I never would have expected that somebody would
17 shot at a window after a photographer had appeared in
18 it. I was very close to the window, anyway.
19 Q. Do you remember what happened when you opened
20 the window; perhaps you ought to have a look at it?
21 Could we just remind you of it, it is EP35.1, I think.
22 This is 35.11; that is the window.
23 Mr Grimaldi, what we have been told is --
24 I think it is perhaps obvious from the photograph --
25 that the larger of the two panes, the horizontal
1 window, revolves horizontally?
2 A. Yes, it rolls outside?
3 Q. It is capable of rolling completely in
4 reverse. I think it may be obvious, we will probably
5 have help from the experts, that the window must have
6 been the other way round when the bullets -- the oblong
7 shape of the bullets we see in this window were fired.
8 Because if you are right, and I do not dispute it, the
9 bullets must have come from an acute angle from the
10 north, they would have been travelling through the
11 glass almost in an oblong direction, if that makes
12 sense.
13 Do you remember the window fully revolving
14 when you opened it?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Can I help you on that, just in case you
17 dispute it: the Tribunal has heard from Mr McCrudden,
18 who would have been in the flat, I think, AM152.5.
19 What he told the Tribunal, by adopting this at
20 paragraph 27 of his statement, was:
21 "The window in the flats has ratches on them
22 which enabled them to be rotated 360 degrees to be
23 cleaned. I am not sure whether the photographer did
24 not understand how this worked or whether the wind
25 caught the window, but whilst he was taking the
1 photographs, the window he was at revolved right round
2 and live shots were fired through the window."
3 Does that at all refresh your memory as to
4 what happened or do you disagree with that?
5 A. That is totally false. I had big problems
6 sticking my head through the small opening of the
7 window which opened towards outside and opened towards
8 inside at the top and I had problems in getting my head
9 and the camera out through this very narrow gap, and
10 I am not aware of somebody else being in the flat,
11 apart from the lady and four children and Susan North.
12 Is there somebody who claims he was in the
13 flat?
14 Q. Mr McCrudden, whose statement I have just
15 read to you, gives that account?
16 A. That is very surprising.
17 Q. The other account the Tribunal has had is
18 from a lady called Margaret Featherstone (that is her
19 married name). If you would like to see that -- her
20 original statement was AF5.14 -- she too, at the very
21 top of that page, says:
22 "The reporter had a camera and was taking
23 photographs at the window. I heard a single shot,
24 which I believe hit the metal frame of the window.
25 I immediately got down on the floor. I then heard six
1 more shots, which came into the room through the window
2 pane."
3 Just in the light of those two statements,
4 that the shooting at least started while you were
5 taking the photographs, I wonder whether you want to
6 reconsider the evidence you have given.
7 A. No, no, the shooting did not start, I would
8 have been dead, I think, I mean from that distance any
9 Paratrooper would have -- as he obviously aimed at me
10 from the small area in which the shots are
11 concentrated, he would have easily shot me dead if
12 I had my face out there, especially as I have a very
13 big head.
14 LORD GIFFORD: Before my learned friend moves
15 on, I think it might be helpful if my learned friend
16 had told the witness that Mr McCrudden as described was
17 a 12-year-old boy at the time?
18 A. (Laughing).
19 MR GLASGOW: Yes, a lot of young people have
20 given evidence. I am afraid I had not recalled his
21 age, but he gave evidence to this Tribunal, of course,
22 as an adult man in which he confirmed what he said on
23 oath, at Day 95, page 118, if anybody is interested.
24 What he said, as a grown man to this Tribunal
25 on that day, was, I hope what I put to you fairly:
1 "The window revolves, because, because of
2 the height of the flats, there is a ratchet on the
3 right-hand side which allows the window to turn inside
4 out for cleaning. So whenever he was taking the
5 photographs he actually wanted to take a better photo,
6 or whatever, I do not really know to be honest, but
7 while he was doing that, he wanted the window open that
8 wee bit further, so he touched the ratchet and I do not
9 know whether the wind ..." et cetera.
10 That was the evidence he gave. You have
11 already said that does not alter the evidence you have
12 given?
13 A. No.
14 Q. For completeness, may we just see what it may
15 be you told the press at the time. I bear in mind and
16 I will not prolong the debate as to whether all the
17 press have your remarks wrong, but we have at L179 the
18 account that found its way to the Guardian. If we take
19 the right-hand column:
20 "Two journalists, one Italian, and one
21 British, in a statement circulated in Dublin last
22 night"; I wonder does that help you?
23 Do you recall you and Ms North actually
24 circulated a written statement when you got to Dublin?
25 A. Yes, it is very likely.
1 Q. Two paragraphs further down, the one up from
2 the bottom:
3 "They claimed that while taking pictures from
4 Rossville Flats, six bullets were fired by Paratroopers
5 through a window ..."; that is what was reported in the
6 press. Subject to all the comments you have made about
7 it, do you want to say anything about that?
8 A. It is absolutely true. This is for one a
9 press report that is correct.
10 Q. The last matter on that which you ought to
11 see, may we go back to the transcript of the television
12 programme I have just discussed with you, and reminded
13 you of what Mr Alex Thompson says of your presence on
14 that film is at X1.6.44. At the top of the page we
15 see "AT" for Alex Thompson:
16 "The couple then made their way up into the
17 Rossville Flats' tower block ... as Fulvio photographed
18 from the window, he was repeatedly fired at by at least
19 one Paratrooper."
20 Again, do you want to make any comment on
21 that?
22 A. I was fired at in as much that as soon as
23 I had withdrawn and somebody had noticed me taking
24 pictures they wanted to get the photographer, firing
25 six times into the window, behind which they expected
1 him to be.
2 Q. The last matter, again you should see the
3 page for this, at M34.67, the last paragraph, 94, you
4 describe Mr Peress. He is the man you told
5 Lord Widgery was your friend?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You say, just the last sentence:
8 "The only other professional I was aware of
9 in that area who was 'in the know' was Peress";
10 I wondered what you wanted the Tribunal to understand
11 from the phrase "in the know"? How was Mr Peress and
12 yourself linked by having something "in the know" that
13 was peculiar to you two; what does that mean?
14 A. That on that day the 1st Battalion
15 paratroopers went into the Bogside to intimidate the
16 civil rights movement by killing an amount of people.
17 Q. Mr Peress, to your knowledge, also knew of
18 the conspiracy which, to the best of your knowledge,
19 you were only other person who knew of it?
20 A. He lived through it and interpreted it in the
21 same way as long as he spoke to me about it.
22 Q. The last matters are this: you yourself --
23 I am not going to ask you any questions about the IRA
24 -- knew and lived with the people of this city,
25 particularly in the Bogside, to know the way they felt,
1 the strength of their feelings and the way in which
2 they behaved?
3 A. (Witness nodding).
4 Q. Could you look at the passage that you put in
5 your article, the article to which you contributed, the
6 European Vietnam at page T321, the last two
7 paragraphs. You deal there with the heroic nature of
8 the proletariat of Derry and one of the attributes you
9 credit them with is, five lines up:
10 "In order to save them from ending up --
11 I should have taken the sentence before:
12 "The dead, the injured who are lying
13 around ... are joined beneath a hailstrom of bullets by
14 rescuers, by people's paramedics, by a priest, by other
15 youngsters, who carry them away in order to save them
16 from ending up in the filthy hands of the killer
17 masters, even their dead bodies."
18 Were you aware it was the practice of the
19 Bogsiders to carry away the dead bodies so they did not
20 fall into the filthy hands of the "killer masters"?
21 A. I must say it is flamboyant prose that
22 I would not use these days, it was another time,
23 another atmosphere and another age of myself.
24 Q. Maybe it loses something of its punch in
25 translation.
1 A. I express the right ideas in a very
2 flamboyant way. I was not aware the bodies would be
3 taken away beyond the border or what not, because I do
4 not think that in the community -- in such a tight
5 community, in a small community like this in Derry one
6 could hide bodies and not let the community know that a
7 body had disappeared and therefore not let the
8 authorities know that the body disappeared.
9 When I say this, I mean that I thought that
10 they wanted to avoid them being handed or being taken
11 by soldiers that would throw them into Saracens,
12 possibly manhandling and mishandling them in the
13 Saracens, as some witnesses and some evidence shows,
14 that is what I mean.
15 Q. The last matter, Mr Grimaldi, is this: had
16 you in your association with the Bogside ever taken
17 part in other marches in Northern Ireland or were you
18 restricted in your activities to this city?
19 A. No, I have been to many marches.
20 Q. Many marches?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In case it does refer to you, it seems right
23 you should deal with it: the Tribunal is going to read
24 a statement from a Seamus Rodgers of this city, who was
25 one of the NICRA workers; did you come across him at
1 all?
2 A. I do not remember, I might well.
3 Q. Can you see what he says, because he refers
4 to a march at Pomeroy; do you remember being there?
5 A. I think so, yes.
6 Q. What he says, we have at AR38.2, I wondered
7 whether it referred to you or whether there were two
8 people to whom it might refer or somebody else to whom
9 it might refer. Paragraph 8, the last couple of
10 inches, please. What he says here to the Tribunal is:
11 "The problem of paramilitary involvement did
12 not arise when organising a march. I can recall
13 however, on the Pomeroy march, meeting an Italian man,
14 who was trying to instigate anarchy amongst the
15 hooligan element. I do not know where he came from.
16 He was not a paramilitary. I regarded him as a bit of
17 a headcase."
18 A. It is prose very similar to mine on the other
19 side.
20 Q. I wonder whether it referred to you or
21 whether --
22 A. It might have referred to me, I was not very
23 much liked by these kind of them and that makes me
24 pretty proud.
25 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Elias, how long do you
1 think you might be?
2 MR ELIAS: Just a couple of minutes, sir.
3 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Clarke, do you have any
4 questions?
5 MR CLARKE: I think I shall be about five
6 minutes.
7 A. Mr Chairman, can I just go to the men's room
8 for one second?
9 LORD SAVILLE: In that case we will stop for
10 five minutes. Yes, we will rise for five minutes.
11 Please, again, do not discuss your evidence with
12 anybody until you have finished giving it. We will try
13 and come back just after ten past.
14 (3.05 pm)
15 (A short adjournment)
16 (3.15 pm)
17 Questioned by MR ELIAS
18 MR ELIAS: Mr Grimaldi, to your left: you
19 have told the Tribunal some little time ago now, that
20 before going up into the Rossville Flats where you were
21 to make your telephone call, you saw a man you now
22 believe to be Mr Nash crossing Rossville Street, shot
23 at and fall. You have a clear recollection of seeing
24 that, do you?
25 A. Yes, but long before I went up into the
1 flats.
2 Q. Long before you went up to the flats; how
3 long before?
4 A. Soon after I crossed over from the front to
5 the back of the flats through the passageway, more or
6 less at the time I saw Doherty and then McGuigan.
7 Q. In order to see this man cross the road, you
8 had to walk, did you, to the end of block 2?
9 A. Not completely, I was out on the ground at
10 Joseph Place.
11 Q. And when you saw him shot, you thought he had
12 been hit, did you?
13 A. Yes. I suspected it, I could not be sure.
14 Q. Could you have a look at document M34.1, on
15 its face a statement taken from you? You know the
16 document, do you not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If we look at M34.3, we see it is dated
19 26th February and said to be a statement taken and
20 witnessed by Mr Heritage from you?
21 A. Mmm.
22 Q. Is it the position that you have no
23 recollection of making such a statement?
24 A. Yes, I do not have a recollection of having
25 given this statement and I still think it might have
1 been done in writing. I do not remember having been to
2 any hearing by a Mr Heritage.
3 Q. I will ask you to look at another document in
4 relation to the original statement in a moment.
5 Could we go back and have a look at
6 paragraphs 7 and 8 on the previous page? If this is
7 your statement 26th February, this is what it is said
8 that you said. Paragraph 7, having talked about
9 crawling or going through the passageway between blocks
10 2 and 3:
11 "The other side of the building I saw a body
12 I now know to be Doherty's. Further down, in front of
13 the telephone box, I saw out of the corner of my eye, a
14 man spin round and fall. I now know this was
15 Barney McGuigan. I then took photographs."
16 Then at paragraph 8, you say:
17 "We -- you are referring to yourself and
18 Susan, are you not?
19 A. Mmm.
20 Q. "... went round the corner of the high
21 building and went in by the Rossville Street entrance.
22 There was no firing at this moment."
23 You do not put in this statement any
24 reference to seeing a man cross the road at the barrier
25 and being shot at and falling?
1 A. Indeed I do not.
2 Q. Because?
3 A. Because I might have forgotten all the
4 details, all the shootings, all the events, all the
5 episodes that I have been through, it is a very short
6 summary, this is.
7 Q. It is --
8 A. There are many more things missing.
9 Q. It gives us this additional detail at that
10 moment:
11 "There was no firing at that moment. The
12 Saracens had passed the barricade and were by us at the
13 end of the block."
14 That is to say, the Saracen had come through
15 the barrier?
16 A. I do not know whether it had come through the
17 barrier or whether it had gone round Glenfada Park, it
18 was there, it was sitting there.
19 Q. It was there at the southern end of block 1?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That was the position, as you now remember
22 it, was it, when you went up to make your telephone
23 call?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could I ask you, please, to look at M34.132?
1 It is a handwritten document: perhaps you will take it
2 from me, with one or two insertions, it contains the
3 same words as we have seen in the typed document.
4 You have seen this before, have you not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it your signature at the bottom left of
7 that page?
8 A. It appears to be my signature, yes.
9 Q. Over the page, M34.133, is it your signature
10 at the bottom of that statement?
11 A. It seems to be my signature, so it seems, in
12 a rather childish writing, it seems (indistinguishable)
13 mine when I was 8 years old, but never mind.
14 Q. Are you disputing that it is your signature?
15 A. I would not -- I mean, it looks like my
16 signature, but I would not assign anything like that
17 today or even then; it looks a very childish kind of
18 writing.
19 Q. Are you saying it does not appear that you
20 signed this statement?
21 A. It may be, I cannot say.
22 Q. The man that you spoke about, you say you
23 noticed that he was tipsy?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In what way did you notice that; what was
1 there about him?
2 A. Well, he probably spoke in a fluffy way or
3 was not firm on his feet.
4 Q. So you got very close to him, did you?
5 A. To Mr Nash, yes, the man who was Mr Nash who
6 I was later -- might have been Mr Nash, the man with
7 the cap.
8 Q. Did the man have any injury as far as you
9 could see at that stage?
10 A. No, I did not notice any injury, although
11 later I learned that he had been injured.
12 Q. He was not complaining of any injury at that
13 time, was he?
14 A. I do not remember what he said, I did not
15 take him very seriously because of his state, of his
16 condition.
17 Q. You have told the Tribunal you did not see
18 any civilian gunman or any hint or sign of such a thing
19 the whole of the time you were out and about in the
20 Bogside this day?
21 A. No, I did not say that I never saw any gunman
22 in the Bogside during my stay or weeks and on various
23 occasions and so on.
24 Q. On this particular day?
25 A. On this particular day, I did not see any
1 gunmen.
2 Q. Do you remember within a very short time of
3 Bloody Sunday having a conversation with Susan about
4 something she had seen in the passageway between
5 blocks 2 and 3 of Rossville Flats?
6 A. Yes, she said, as far as I remember in those
7 days, she said if people were worried about the
8 possibility of somebody pulling out some guns and
9 causing a very nasty reaction on the side of the
10 Paratroopers, and that they asked around for everybody
11 not to do anything silly. That she told me, I was not
12 aware of that, I did not pay attention to this kind of,
13 of pleading.
14 Q. She told you that, that people would ask
15 around: "if you have a gun in your pocket, leave it
16 there"?
17 A. That is what she told me, yes.
18 Q. That is what she told you, is it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Questioned by MR CLARKE
21 MR CLARKE: Can you help me on a number of
22 final things? The picture that you took which has
23 Barry McGuigan in it, you took at a time after you
24 yourself had seen him fall.
25 When you first saw Barney McGuigan being
1 shot, did you take any cover yourself at that stage?
2 A. No, I never took any cover at any stage.
3 Q. Were you close up to the wall of the middle
4 block?
5 A. When I saw Mr McGuigan being shot?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I was very close to the corner of the middle
8 block, yes.
9 Q. And doing the best you can, are you able to
10 tell us whether you took the photograph which has
11 Barney McGuigan in it immediately after you had seen
12 him shot, or after an interval?
13 A. After an interval.
14 Q. Do you have any idea how long that interval
15 may have been?
16 A. I think I concentrated on Doherty first and
17 I took a few pictures of him and of the man crawling
18 towards him and that might have taken two or three
19 minutes.
20 Q. And then you took a picture --
21 A. Then I walked down closer to Barney McGuigan
22 and took his picture.
23 MR TOOHEY: Mr Grimaldi, did you walk closer
24 down to take that picture? I do not have the
25 photograph in front of me, but I thought the photograph
1 which shows Mr McGuigan lying on the ground was taken
2 by you virtually from the exit --
3 A. Yes.
4 MR TOOHEY: -- at the alleyway?
5 A. That was a general picture. It was not a
6 picture of Mr Barney McGuigan, it was the general
7 picture of the scene.
8 LORD SAVILLE: I think you may have
9 misunderstood Mr Clarke's question. If we have P318 on
10 the screen: I think Mr Grimaldi said something about
11 walking down, I think he may have been referring to a
12 later photograph.
13 MR CLARKE: That photograph, which we now see
14 on the screen, which is the photograph with
15 Barney McGuigan in it, you had not walked away from
16 where you had been at the corner, had you, when you
17 took this photograph?
18 A. This picture is taken from the corner, but
19 I could not swear it was the first picture I took at
20 the corner.
21 Q. As I understand what you are saying, you
22 think that you may, after Barney McGuigan was shot,
23 have taken pictures of Patrick Doherty which took a
24 little time, two or three minutes, before taking this
25 photograph?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I want next, if I may, to look at some other
3 photographs which I have not so far shown you, but
4 which we have also got from the Sunday Times archive.
5 May we have on the screen, please, P863: do
6 you think that is one of your photographs? It is
7 obviously of the people taking Jack Duddy?
8 A. Jack Duddy. I do not know, I have never seen
9 it before, this photograph.
10 Q. 864: that is a photograph taken from --
11 A. Passageway.
12 Q. Possibly, but it is looking towards the gable
13 end of Chamberlain Street. Do you think that is a
14 photograph of yours?
15 A. Could be, yes.
16 Q. 866: the writing is I am sure Sunday Times
17 writing; is this a photograph of yours?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. 867?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. 868?
22 A. I do not remember.
23 Q. 869?
24 A. I do not remember.
25 Q. This is a photograph which shows the rubble
1 barricade on the right-hand side and shows a whole lot
2 of people at the gable end wall. We have seen from the
3 photograph that has Barney McGuigan in it, that at the
4 time when that photograph was taken there plainly were
5 not people in this position, either at all, or at any
6 rate in those numbers. One might deduce from that that
7 this cannot have been your photograph?
8 A. No, because it is taken from high, it must be
9 taken from a window in the flats and it is not my
10 window.
11 Q. Did you ever take a photograph from a window
12 other than a photograph of the two Army vehicles in
13 Rossville Street?
14 A. No.
15 Q. May we have 870: do you recognise that
16 photograph?
17 A. That is my picture, yes.
18 Q. Can we now look, please, at T88? This is a
19 copy of a photograph which comes from "Blood on the
20 Street". It seems to be different to any other
21 photograph that we have seen because, although one can
22 see the bodies of Barney McGuigan and Hugh Gilmore, we
23 can also see a man apparently walking up
24 Rossville Street.
25 Is this, do you think, one of your
1 photographs?
2 A. I would think so, yes.
3 Q. I do not know what stage this may have been
4 taken, but I presume that there was not any fire at
5 this stage because otherwise one would not expect to
6 see a man standing up and walking, apparently perfectly
7 normally, up Rossville Street?
8 A. Well, he could be running in fact.
9 Q. If we have T305: this is another photograph
10 from "Blood in the Street" which I do not think we see
11 anywhere else. The photograph at the top, do you think
12 that is one of your photographs?
13 A. I think so, yes.
14 Q. In the Widgery Inquiry your photographs, or
15 the photographs that were produced to them, were
16 numbered EP26, 1 to 30. For some reason EP26.11 does
17 not seem to have survived.
18 Do you know whether this photograph was
19 before Lord Widgery?
20 A. No, I would not remember, I am sorry,
21 Mr Clarke.
22 Q. Two last matters: could we have M34.146?
23 I am not sure that I asked you this question; if I did,
24 please forgive me for doing it twice.
25 In your evidence to Lord Widgery, you
1 described going further along and taking a photograph
2 of Gilmore who was dead. You then said this:
3 "As I stood in this place for a couple of
4 minutes a girl was going hysterical. I photographed
5 her."
6 Is that the photograph we looked at just a
7 minute ago?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. "I understand she was the one who saw Gilmore
10 dying and then I turned round the corner, I took a
11 couple of photographs of people crossing the barricade
12 and I saw a man proceeding to cross the barricade
13 falling down, what I thought then was falling down; in
14 fact he went down spontaneously and shots were being
15 fired at this stage and then he proceeded and got up
16 again and came round the corner where I photographed
17 him again."
18 That is obviously Nash; is that right?
19 A. It could be Nash, but I -- if it is Nash
20 I would place this episode at an earlier stage.
21 Q. At an earlier stage than what?
22 A. Than at this moment in time after having
23 photographed the girl going hysterical and after the
24 Saracens had come up beyond the barricade.
25 Q. Taken literally, you refer to "taking a
1 couple of photographs of people crossing the
2 barricade"?
3 A. Yes, I must have mixed it up with the other
4 photograph I took of, perhaps it is a priest, that is
5 crossing the barricade with his hands on his head.
6 Q. That is a considerably later photograph?
7 A. That is a much later photograph, yes.
8 Q. The last matter I wanted your help about, is
9 this: could we have back on the screen P357? My
10 learned friend Lord Gifford asked you a number of
11 questions about this and he pointed out that, if you
12 look carefully at the top of this photograph, at a time
13 when there is a large crowd around in the wasteground
14 below William Street, we can see that the banner is
15 being held in Little James Street at the top of the
16 photograph.
17 If we look at EP26.2, I think that you were
18 minded to accept that the banner we see in this
19 photograph may be the same banner as you took a picture
20 of, and the picture appears at T112; can that be
21 right? This photograph of a banner is showing
22 Little James Street, which is here (indicating). This
23 is barrier 12 (indicating), the barrier that was in
24 Little James Street.
25 As I understand your evidence, after you had
1 gone to barrier 14, that is to say the barrier at the
2 east end of William Street, you did not return to this
3 area, but instead went down in the little alleyway that
4 leads to the wasteland and down to Eden Place; is that
5 not right?
6 A. Yes, well, I might have spent a few more --
7 I might have moved on a few more yards to take this
8 picture -- the distance between barrier 12 and
9 barricade 14 is a very small distance -- I might have
10 just shot there to take the picture of these two
11 persons standing very courageously, very bravely in
12 front of people shooting rubber bullets and gas, and so
13 this might have been a nice picture to take and then
14 I moved on to Eden Place. This is how I can explain it
15 because these are my pictures.
16 Q. If we could have your map, M34.172: you told
17 us, and your map describes how after you had been in
18 front of the barrier you came down this little lane,
19 Macari's Lane, and ended up here. (Indicating).
20 The people holding the banner are somewhere
21 around here?
22 A. I would say they would be slightly closer to
23 William Street, at the crossing, right at the crossing,
24 from the big picture you showed us before.
25 Q. Let us assume they are there. But you did
1 not, did you, go what would be something like 60 yards
2 up William Street to there and then back again and go
3 down Macari's Lane?
4 A. I would, not that distance, I do not think it
5 is 60 yards --
6 Q. It is.
7 A. I might have gone half the way and that would
8 have been sufficient to take that picture.
9 Q. I wonder whether you took that picture on
10 your way down --
11 A. Could be, could be, Mr Clarke.
12 Q. Those are all the questions that I wanted to
13 ask.
14 LORD SAVILLE: Mr Grimaldi, it is the
15 Chairman again. Thank you very much indeed for coming
16 here to give evidence to this Inquiry.
17 A. Thank you gentlemen, thank you Chairman.
18 (The witness withdrew)
19 LORD SAVILLE: Tomorrow, Mr Clarke, we will
20 start with Mr O'Boyle who we started with yesterday.
21 I do not know what the other witness order is yet, or
22 at least I am not sure.
23 MR CLARKE: I am told that it is as the list
24 that had already been circulated, but without
25 Mr Hutton. It is: Mr O'Boyle from yesterday and those
1 on the list without Mr Hutton.
2 Sir, before you rise, may I say something
3 since I shall not be able to be here tomorrow or the
4 next day. I would simply like to record with regret,
5 but with best wishes two departures from our midst:
6 one actual and one prospective.
7 My learned friend, Mr Kevin Finnegan, left us
8 a little earlier in the year for the very good reason
9 that he has been elevated to the Circuit Bench, the
10 judiciary's gain is our loss, and I should like to
11 record our congratulations.
12 The prospective departure is that we shall,
13 at the end of this week, be saying goodbye to my
14 learned friend, Mr Edmund Lawson, who leaves us to
15 fulfil an earlier commitment and whose characteristic
16 presence we shall undoubtedly miss and whom I should
17 like to extend our best wishes.
18 LORD SAVILLE: I am sure the Tribunal would
19 join you in that, Mr Clarke, thank you very much.
20 (3.40 pm)
21 (Proceedings adjourned until 9.30 am on
22 Wednesday, 27th June 2001)
23 MR FULVIO GRIMALDI, affirmed
24 Questioned by MR CLARKE.............................. 1
25 Questioned by MR TOPOLSKI.......................... 112
1 Questioned by MR COYLE............................. 128
2 Questioned by MR MALLON............................ 134
3 Questioned by LORD GIFFORD......................... 144
4 Questioned by MR GLASGOW........................... 155
5 Questioned by MR ELIAS............................. 177
6 Questioned by MR CLARKE............................ 183
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